Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololol this is the worst advice EVAR!! Thats WHY you have played more 10NL than anyone else!!!!!lolololol...obv there arent many winning tags at 10NL cause they get better and move up LDO and the ones that are there for a long period of time suck postflop!!! this could be 1 of the most redic threads ive read in a while lolololol

i hate to come off as a dick but COME ON THAT IS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE ADIVCE!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

ever think that maybe i choose to stick to 10nl is because i just don't feel comfortable playing with more money in front of me?

[ QUOTE ]
dont think Kurto means to play that loose/passive (30-40/3/)
but just that sometimes against horrible opponents that see tons of flops and dont fold to pfr's and dont fold to c-bets you can adjust by just seing alot of flops and value betting them to death when you make a hand. these type of players will call off alot of their stacks in unraised pots anyways so you dont have to raise as much.

game conditions arent like this that often online IMO though, maybe just like fri/sat night.

These concepts do apply more in Live FR NL games at most casinos though were players are just terrible and I think you could win by just limping often and only raising jj+ and AK and turn a good profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the crux of the issue. unless you are running hot as balls you are not going to make a hand often enough to turn a profit if you raise pf so often.

[BevillTheDevil]

Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've never seen a 2nl table that wasn't loose/passive and 90% of the 10nl tables seem to be loose/passive as well

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you left out the most important reason to raise PF, to gain information about other hands you are up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm at a table where there are 3 people each seeing more then 60% of the flops (and yes, you can find these tables nearly every night on Full Tilt $25NL 6max), when I raise, I have NO information about what the 3 guys who call me are playing.

[ QUOTE ]
YOu mention suited Aces. Lets say you play Ad 7d and the flop comes A 10 8 rainbow without a diamond. If you limp anyone could call with A 8 and up and you are dominated and with no info a beginner will spew with TPWK at the micros. May work for you but is not good advice to give someone who is already struggling.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm not calling with a suited ace to play a big pot with Top Pair weak kicker. Depending on the board and who is involved in the hand, I can drop top pair weak kicker. I may or may not call down with top pair depending on who badly I think the other player is and whether or not they give away their hand strength based on bet sizing.

Haven't you been at tables where 4 people will see the flop and someone will bet 2bb into a 8bb pot on the flop and everyone will call? Then, when you hit the nutflush on th turn, these same people with sets/2 pair/lesser flushes will get their full stack in on the turn?

I'm not recommending people who can't fold top pair crap kicker play Axs UTG. I'm recommending it to people who have the patience and discipline to see many pots cheaply and only get a lot in post flop when they have a monster.

"Most of the people I see that complain their Aces and Kings always get cracked limp with them and with pairs you are begging to get drawn out on without narrowing down the number of players in the pot."

I agree. I said you should still raise your monsters... you can still raise for value. I'm merely suggesting that, if players post flop play is bad ("Can't fold bottom pair" or "I have a gutshot... I'll put in half my stack on the turn") and there's little to no raising preflop, then you should see more flops cheaply with hands that can hit monsters (especially if they're disguised)

I said in the post - raise your really strong hands. See many flops with speculative hands cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope to see a 35/5 at my tables tonight. Good luck all.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're setting your standards too low. At $25 Full Tilt, you should be looking for 65/3 and 75/20.

[BevillTheDevil]

jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[yapee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also thinks so. I have a friend who has recently played 2nl and I watched him do it alot. I basically think that outfolding people pf is the key to the game (and of course raising with your good hands/ when in good position). That, and getting enough money to move up as quickly as possible ;-]

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say... I agreed that Jerry's advice could work in certain conditions (which may or may not regularly exist at the $10 tables.) That being said, playing nitty at microlimits is not a losing strategy.

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.

I suspect if you played nitty, you had other leaks.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[yapee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


There's actually a motorway in hell this works. And an 8-lane one or so.