Is It Possible To Become A Worse Player Over Time?

[Rookcifer]

I have become a worse player and I am not sure why. Despite reading various books, reading these forums, and studying hand histories, my win rate has declined dramatically. I was at about 7 ptbb/100 for my first 40k hands, and now this number has declined to a horrendous 2 ptbb/100 in the last two weeks. The last few weeks have totally negated everything I have won over the past couple of months. Not sure how I have become worse, but I am getting killed and my bankroll is too small to play even at the smallest stakes, so I am going to have to retire to play money.

I am getting destroyed by the loose maniacs. I still think the loose style wins the most $$$, regardless of what all the TAG people say. Almost invariably every super-stack at any table I see has a VPIP over 60%. I have even experimented and I end up winning more when I stop playing tight and loosen up to around 25-30% VPIP. However, I am not able to maintain a good win rate because playing looser means one must also compliment that by being a better "reader" of the opponent. The looser you are, the better you need to be at understanding exactly where you are at at any given point in the hand.

I also have a major problem letting a big hand go when beat. I just don't know how to read people at the micros (but didn't have this problem before). For example, I have a hard time letting an A high flush go when the board is paired. Too many villains will move in on a board like that with just two pair. So when I fold, I feel like I made a mistake and when I call, more times than not, they turn over the full house.

Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to stop getting worse and to start getting better. I have been reading NLHE:TAP, and though the book is great on theoretical grounds, it is not really helpful in practice. The theory is just too cumbersome to be able to realistically apply when making every decision. I am not sure anyone solves equations in their head while at the table, no matter what some math nerd players might say. I suppose I need a basic strategy that teaches me "do this here and do that there." NLHE:TAP makes sure that you understand that the book is not going to tell you what to do. I think this is not really helpful (unless one just wants to study the theory for academic reasons). I want someone to say "in this situation raise and here you need to fold." Perhaps books like this may not be able to teach you to "maximize" your win rate, like NLTAP might be able to do if you apply all concepts perfectly, but I am willing to take a few ptBB/100 hits if I can still at least win marginally.

[FoxInTheHenHouse]

Try this book out, the info in it is probably just what you're looking for....

HOW TO DOMINATE $1 & $2 NO LIMIT HOLD'EM
by Sam O'Connor

"Dominate" is not about LIMIT hold'em.
"Dominate" is not about graphs or charts or mathematical equations.

"Dominate" is about No Limit hold'em!
"Dominate" is about power, position, image and people. As the author atates at every opportunity; "Poker is not a card game played by people. Poker is a people game played with cards."

Author Sam O'Connor is a 50 year professional poker veteran. He shares his tricks, tips and secrets with us in "Dominate". His style is bold and aggessive. Becoming the "dominator" requires guts. This book provides the tools and insights the reader needs to assume this role.

The meat in this book is found in the final couple hundred pages! It takes at least a couple of readings to absorb the basics and many, many hours of practice to acquire the skills required to play Sam's game. Speaking from experience, it's worth the investment!

While the book focuses on $1/$2 NLHE, the principles apply equally to lower and higher stakes. I have also adapted the lessons from "Dominate" to SnG's and MTT's with very good results. This book is written by a "live" player and is obviously most effective when used in a live situation where you can see the villains. Most of the meat can, however, be applied successfully to online poker.

[JereLock]

Can I get a 2nd opinion on this book? Sounds interesting enough to ask some1 else about it.

[Jzo19]

IMO the strat forums are way more valuable than any book out there ...there still isnt a great nl holdem cash game book that is designed for tougher online games ..proffesional NL is pretty good ...it will get you beating the micros but it doesnt give you startegy like what to raise PF and what to play PF because and all of that ...that comes from discussing strategy with other players and understanding the game better ...if your unsure how you played a hand just post it in the strat forums

[SellingtheDrama]

if you want to play cookbook poker, don't play big bet (no limit or pot limit). If this is what you want to do, play limit, probably Omaha H/L or Holdem...razz is also an option.

Don't feel forced into playing one specific form of poker if that form doesn't suit you psychologically. There are enough choices that play differently, one of them will suit you better.

[Xanthro]

[ QUOTE ]
declined to a horrendous 2 ptbb/100 in the last two weeks. The last few weeks have totally negated everything I have won over the past couple of months

[/ QUOTE ]

Something's wrong here. If you are at 2ptBB/100 you are winning, so how does this negate your bankroll?

Also, there's nothing wrong with 2ptBB/100 that's a decent win rate over time.

[tikipirate]

I think that it is easy to become complacent; I know my play falls off after a while and what I have to do to bring it back around is study, study study (Books, Notes, HHs, Forums etc). Try doing that, and remember that NL is a complex game. I don't think you can play just a basic strategy and be a long time winner. The advice about limit is good; Ive always heard NL refered to as an Art, LHE as a science. Maybe you are just a science person.

[Pitbullo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
declined to a horrendous 2 ptbb/100 in the last two weeks. The last few weeks have totally negated everything I have won over the past couple of months

[/ QUOTE ]

Something's wrong here. If you are at 2ptBB/100 you are winning, so how does this negate your bankroll?

Also, there's nothing wrong with 2ptBB/100 that's a decent win rate over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means his overall winrate went from 7ptbb to 2ptbb, which means he is losing now.

[SellingtheDrama]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is easy to become complacent; I know my play falls off after a while and what I have to do to bring it back around is study, study study (Books, Notes, HHs, Forums etc). Try doing that, and remember that NL is a complex game. I don't think you can play just a basic strategy and be a long time winner. The advice about limit is good; Ive always heard NL refered to as an Art, LHE as a science. Maybe you are just a science person.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't imagine trying to learn poker starting out in a big bet game. When I started, I played primarily hi/lo stud (a very precision oriented game at low limits) and migrated to Omaha H/L before ever seriously taking up NLHE (about 18 months ago).

It's a great foundation for your poker game in general to learn the less popular games.

[RyverRat]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the strat forums are way more valuable than any book out there ...there still isnt a great nl holdem cash game book that is designed for tougher online games ..proffesional NL is pretty good ...it will get you beating the micros but it doesnt give you startegy like what to raise PF and what to play PF because and all of that ...that comes from discussing strategy with other players and understanding the game better ...if your unsure how you played a hand just post it in the strat forums

[/ QUOTE ]

totally agree with this comment. Books will give you the foundations and addiotnal things to think about but to improve you need to discuss hands which is best done in the strat forums.

To answer the title of your question i think it is possible to become a worse player. I started online and lost. i was playing way too many hands. When i had read a ton of books i approached the game with a tighter style and started losing more. This was down to one main reason - not letting go of second best hands. I was more experienced and tighter but could not let go of those hands that lose you the most money. i had become a worse player profit wise even though i was more knowlegeable of poker. Reading this forum and others changed my game to be able to make good laydowns, helped me recognise when to slow down on hands.

I also agree lag style wins more but will have a higher variance. Lag style means you absoultely HAVE to know when to fold these second best hands. Lag style is about constant pressure and picking up lots of pots but being able to get away from hands like 2 pair on scary boards/raises form tight players etc.. This takes time and at low levels LAG is not a winner. ABC at lower levels, build that roll and start to Loosen it up as you step up games. NL50 and below = ABC Poker, tight aggressive, positional game.