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  #101  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:49 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

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Why not? You're suggesting that the possibility of involuntary transactions makes a voluntary society impossible? This is the "zomg there will still be murderers in AC land, it's doomed to failure" argument.

Of course there are things that effect other people. Most of them aren't enough of a problem for anyone to do anything about it.

The kid down the street sometimes drives by my house with his radio blaring. You're saying that because of this I must logically accept a state? The state hasn't put a stop to it (just as it hasn't stopped pollution), so I'm not really sure how you jump from "problem" to "necessity of a state".


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And I'm not sure where I said anything about the necessity of a state. I'm saying that using the philosophical underpinning of a purely voluntary transactions is specious. And, as I said, there ARE people who believe that cars are a serious enough problem to do something. They go and blow up Hummers and get called ecoterrorists.

Now, since they are being affected by the "involuntary transactions" that others are making, what recourse do they have? Does not the fact that no courts exist which would serve their desires and preferences mean anything? Is this not the definition of the tyrnanny of the majority?

I read that living in NY city and just breathing the air is as bad for you as smoking X cigarrets a day (I'd have to look up the specific number and study, but it was >1). Do people living in NY city have the right to sue? Are their courts that will hear their case? Or is this also tyranny of the majority?

My point is not that we need a state or that we need anything, my point is that "tyranny of the majority" is a fact of life that is overcomable only by the use of FORCE by a minority willing and powerful enough to do so. This force may be physical violence, it may be emotional pleading, it may be something else, but it is force and power nonetheless.
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  #102  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:02 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

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That sounds great. In the real world, however, people are compelled to participate in "communities" with other people not of their choosing. When governments become optional organizations that you can join and leave just like you do a health club or phone company, then this "elect someone better" argument might hold water. Until then, it doesn't.

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So long as you continue to think I'm the one living in a fantasyland utopia, this is going nowhere.

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You're NOT living in the fantasyland utopia. That's the problem with your "if you don't like it elect someone else" argument.

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I'm not even sure where to place your belief, since all I see you do is bitch and moan about the government.

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Wow. All you do is bitch and moan about people who want to do things their own way without bothering anyone else.

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My solution isn't perfect, but it is a solution. If you honestly think it is impossible to affect the outcome of a mayor's election (how many people even vote in these elections??) so that someone is elected that supports your basic tenets, or to move somewhere where that is already the case... I don't know what to tell you.

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I never said that isn't possible. But the "vote someone else in" argument assumes that it's not only easy but a decision that is entirely up to the person the argument is aimed at. It's not like buying shoes. If you don't like the shoes you have, go buy some better ones. That

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America is a very, very diversfied country. For better or worse, you will find people who agree with what you say, almost regardless of what that is. It may mean moving to New Hampsire or Montana or whatever other forgotten corner, but that's just how it is.

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Yes, everyone understands "that's just how it is."

Is that really the only thing that matters to you? The status quo is the status quo, so STFU. This is the most ridiculous argument made in this forum, and it gets trotted out more frequently than almost any other, and by people who otherwise seem capable of thinking beyond that level.

Might makes right, yes or no?

If no, then you can't possibly think an appeal to the status quo gives any sort of legitimacy at all.

Go back 200 years. Slavery is legal, that's just how it is! Sure, eventually enough people will change their mind on this and the "right" people will get elected and the law will change. But that's frankly irrelevant. Do you think that while it's "legal" that there can be no meaningful examination of the law to *judge* it right or wrong?

Further, your fixation on moving and geographical proximity begs other questions. There is nothing inherent about voluntary transactions that require either

A) you be near the people you want to interact with

or

B) you interact with people near you

The fact that someone lives next door to me does not give me license to impose upon him, nor does it give him license to impose upon me.

Further, the ease of moving does not create license for any imposition, either.
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  #103  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:12 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

pvn,

So long as you continue to think that I support the status quo, or oppose personal liberty and the right to self-determination and self-reliance, I've decided it's not worth the frustration of trying to discuss anything with you. This will be the last post of yours that I respond to.

Have a nice day/week/month/year/however long it takes.
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  #104  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:12 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not sure where I said anything about the necessity of a state. I'm saying that using the philosophical underpinning of a purely voluntary transactions is specious.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting really close to being a semantical nitpicker here. It doesn't matter what you think of the philosophical underpinnings, if you are in favor of involuntary actions to address certain issues, you're arguing for a state.

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And, as I said, there ARE people who believe that cars are a serious enough problem to do something. They go and blow up Hummers and get called ecoterrorists.

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Yes, these people exist. There are also people who think aliens are kidnapping them. They exist. And there are people who hear voices that tell them to kill people. They exist.

What's your point?

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Now, since they are being affected by the "involuntary transactions" that others are making, what recourse do they have? Does not the fact that no courts exist which would serve their desires and preferences mean anything? Is this not the definition of the tyrnanny of the majority?

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Yes and no.

First recognize that these people aren't *entitled* to have their desires catered to by other people.

Then realize that the market they want to participate in (arbitration services) is incredibly distorted by government intervention.

In fact, the pollution they despise and are damaged by is explicitly permitted by government. Government *immunizes* the aggressors in this case.

So we have a situation where involuntary transactions create this situation. And you think this is some indictment of what would happen in a world where involuntary transactions were not accepted as the norm?

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I read that living in NY city and just breathing the air is as bad for you as smoking X cigarrets a day (I'd have to look up the specific number and study, but it was >1). Do people living in NY city have the right to sue? Are their courts that will hear their case? Or is this also tyranny of the majority?

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Again, you have a situation that is created directly by involuntary transactions. What this says about a voluntary society is not clear to me. Perhaps you could elaborate a little more to make your point here.

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My point is not that we need a state or that we need anything, my point is that "tyranny of the majority" is a fact of life that is overcomable only by the use of FORCE by a minority willing and powerful enough to do so. This force may be physical violence, it may be emotional pleading, it may be something else, but it is force and power nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this has what to do with my posts that you responded to?
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  #105  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:19 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

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pvn,

So long as you continue to think that I support the status quo,

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I don't think you do. But you run and hide behind it a lot.

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or oppose personal liberty and the right to self-determination and self-reliance,

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You certainly have made it difficult to believe otherwise. All you do is whine and bitch about "practical complications" of such (ignoring that these practical complications are not restricted to such voluntary interactions) or the "philosophical underpinnings" of leaving other people alone.

You've said that wanting "no government whatsoever" = "fantasyland utopia" and you've denied being a fantasyland utopian, so you must logically then support government. Now, that in and of itself doesn't mean you oppose personal liberty, but as soon as you decide that other people should also be subjected to your government, no matter how limited (and you do suggest this with your repeated cries of "move if you don't like it") then you ARE opposing personal liberty.

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Have a nice day/week/month/year/however long it takes.

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Just let me know whenever you're ready to stop with the doubletalk.
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  #106  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:21 PM
AlexM AlexM is offline
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]

You've said that wanting "no government whatsoever" = "fantasyland utopia" and you've denied being a fantasyland utopian, so you must logically then support government.

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No, this is not a logical conclusion. Believing that government is inevitable and working to make that inevitability the best you can doesn't mean you support it in the slightest.
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  #107  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:45 PM
pvn pvn is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You've said that wanting "no government whatsoever" = "fantasyland utopia" and you've denied being a fantasyland utopian, so you must logically then support government.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is not a logical conclusion. Believing that government is inevitable and working to make that inevitability the best you can doesn't mean you support it in the slightest.

[/ QUOTE ]


If wanting no government = fantasyland utopian, and A is not a fantasyland utopian, then A does NOT want no government, therefore he wants government, which is a lot different than merely believing that it is inevitable.
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