[5/10] Three hands from my comeback session

GMMigge · #1 07-24-2007, 06:50 PM

Except for collecting the remaining FPP's to get the 40" LCD TV, I've basically taken a timeout lately. Have been pwned so badly.

Been reading Stox' book and got new motivation, so I made little bit of a comeback today two-tabling 5/10 for a while. Here are three hands, probably nothing special about them. It's the same villain in all of the hands - no special reads on him, but he seemed taggy and decent, and in retrospect, somewhat tricky at times.

Hand 1:

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Perhaps I should have folded the river here?

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Hand 2:

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

River value bet g00t?

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Hand 3:

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB

This hand kind of sucked - but he could very well be semibluffing on the turn with a lot of draws in this blind vs blind battle, and the river completed many of those draws, hence my turn call and river fold. Thoughts?

V4P · #2 07-24-2007, 07:30 PM

Results from hand 1 would impact my decisions on the other hands, but against a standardish tag, I'd call down in the first hand, check river on the 2nd, and not raise PF in the 3rd. K3o plays like [censored] postflop, especially against a thinking/tricky player

GMMigge · #3 07-24-2007, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...and not raise PF in the 3rd. K3o plays like [censored] postflop, especially against a thinking/tricky player

[/ QUOTE ]

By saying this, you saved yourself some headache by avoiding the postflop decision in the hand [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Not saying that I disagree with what you said, but given that I did play preflop as I did, what about the turn decision?

FWIW, the reason I did raise preflop is simply because I like doing it sometimes, that's all. Sometimes I raise all hands when it's completed in front of me. Mostly depends on previous hands in the same session, table image, etc. I cannot say if this was a good time to do it or not, I don't remember the table dynamics at the time. In this specific hand, postflop is more interesting anyways.

GMMigge · #4 07-24-2007, 07:46 PM

Regarding hand nr 2, sure, my value bet on the river is thin at best. But there were both a 4 and a 6 on the flop (both cards lower than my 7s), a flop that he did call, and I don't think it's that unlikely that he'd play such a pair (or low PP's) passively OOP by check-calling down after me 3-betting preflop. Since my image probably is quite aggressive, he might even call me down with A-high as well.

jstill · #5 07-24-2007, 08:16 PM

1 id calldown, people raising the flop is air or semi bluffs a ton, dont know if he fires the river enoguh to call profitably but once i get there I call cuz maybe enough villains would fire again if they raised this flop with air (maybe the turn slows them down a ton tho i duno?) but when u dont cr the turn ur hand doesnt look like big pairs it looks like A hi (since he didnt cap pre u probably dont put him on quads or a PP >TT) so he mite try to fold thos ehands out on the river i duno.

hand 2 I probably wouldnt vb but it could be close most people will still cr a K in this spot on one street or the other so I think only if he played Jx dd this way and decided to ck call the river will u get burnt, hes probably not cr'ing hardly ever either (J8dd maybe?)

hand 3 seems fine, if u bet the turn on this board I dont think we can bet fold. I wonder if we should call the river if its a rag spade or T no flush. probably yes to both definitely the latter? I hate these spots fwiw.

GMMigge · #6 07-25-2007, 03:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1 id calldown, people raising the flop is air or semi bluffs a ton, dont know if he fires the river enoguh to call profitably but once i get there I call cuz maybe enough villains would fire again if they raised this flop with air (maybe the turn slows them down a ton tho i duno?) but when u dont cr the turn ur hand doesnt look like big pairs it looks like A hi (since he didnt cap pre u probably dont put him on quads or a PP >TT) so he mite try to fold thos ehands out on the river i duno.

hand 2 I probably wouldnt vb but it could be close most people will still cr a K in this spot on one street or the other so I think only if he played Jx dd this way and decided to ck call the river will u get burnt, hes probably not cr'ing hardly ever either (J8dd maybe?)

hand 3 seems fine, if u bet the turn on this board I dont think we can bet fold. I wonder if we should call the river if its a rag spade or T no flush. probably yes to both definitely the latter? I hate these spots fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nh. These thoughts sums up my own pretty much.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if we should call the river if its a rag spade or T no flush. probably yes to both definitely the latter?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather say "probably yes to both definitely the former". But seriously I don't know - as you said, those spots sucks. I guess it's my own fault ending up in the situation in the first place by betting the turn, but I don't like checking behind on the turn either.

Oink · #7 07-25-2007, 04:02 AM

I call down hand 1 but since villain really should expect hero to call down A high maybe the river should be a c/f.

I dont vb hand 2. Turn and river dont look good and villain prolly peels the hands that was helped by those. If I knew that villain wouldnt peel loose on the flop I would vb thinking he had 6x or 4x a lot.

I dont know why you would raise preflop in hand 3? The call down is marginal since the pot is smallish. I dont like checking on that board either. I dunnio, its a crappy spot and if you hadnt raised preflop there would be one less bet in the pot making a bet/fold easier.

yellowjack · #8 07-25-2007, 04:29 AM

i think hand 1 is a calldown because we have to establish to villain that we cannot be bluffed in future hands in similar spots. of course there is meta-game (he may elect to bluff despite you showing that you will not fold Ace-high in 3-bet pots on paired boards) but i wouldn't expect it. once he shows us that he wasn't bluffing, we start folding.

hand 2 i check/call the river since i do not see him calling down with a hand like Ad xd or any similar hands that you beat. in addition, if you c/c the river he might put you on a missed FD or AQ/AT so that villain may:

1) bet a hand that missed (e.g. FD)
2) not value-bet hands that beat you like TT-99

showing that villain indeed called the river bet may have skewed the feedback you were looking for in this hand.

in hand 3, check PF unless villain is a donk who folds too many flops. you have >50% equity and position, but reverse implied odds. in my games (which look softer), i would raise K7o+ here. oh yeah it's the same villain from before: chances are he has probably read stox's book so definitely read up on blind vs blind play (pg 90 or so). you are only getting 5 to 1 when he c/r-s the turn and if you believe you are behind, you are not getting good enough odds to continue. in general i would check the turn here with some frequency to induce a bluff on the river. it hurts to give away a free card, but it keeps you from getting semi-bluffed or putting many BBs in drawing to 5 outs vs a tough player. in other words, it helps keep the pot small. it also balances out the times when you have a hand you cannot call a river bet with.

sharpie · #9 07-25-2007, 05:45 AM

1) I'd play the same.
2) I'm not sure about the turn, but as played I'd value bet the river.
3) Don't raise PF. I would be calling shenanigans on his turn c/r too, I'd expect him not to wait with a flopped pair on this board, although if he's tricky it's possible. Shiddy river card. You still beat hearts and 65, I would call once I got there.

GMMigge · #10 07-25-2007, 06:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i think hand 1 is a calldown because we have to establish to villain that we cannot be bluffed in future hands in similar spots. of course there is meta-game (he may elect to bluff despite you showing that you will not fold Ace-high in 3-bet pots on paired boards) but i wouldn't expect it. once he shows us that he wasn't bluffing, we start folding.

hand 2 i check/call the river since i do not see him calling down with a hand like Ad xd or any similar hands that you beat. in addition, if you c/c the river he might put you on a missed FD or AQ/AT so that villain may:

1) bet a hand that missed (e.g. FD)
2) not value-bet hands that beat you like TT-99

showing that villain indeed called the river bet may have skewed the feedback you were looking for in this hand.

in hand 3, check PF unless villain is a donk who folds too many flops. you have >50% equity and position, but reverse implied odds. in my games (which look softer), i would raise K7o+ here. oh yeah it's the same villain from before: chances are he has probably read stox's book so definitely read up on blind vs blind play (pg 90 or so). you are only getting 5 to 1 when he c/r-s the turn and if you believe you are behind, you are not getting good enough odds to continue. in general i would check the turn here with some frequency to induce a bluff on the river. it hurts to give away a free card, but it keeps you from getting semi-bluffed or putting many BBs in drawing to 5 outs vs a tough player. in other words, it helps keep the pot small. it also balances out the times when you have a hand you cannot call a river bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like you missed that I was in position in hand 2. If I somehow had been OOP then I agree that check/calling the river is good.

Regarding hand 3 and my PFR then I agree to you all, raising K3o is not that good against this type of player. The times I do raise it is when I decided to raise any two cards anyway, and when I do that generally depends on the flow of the table, my image and the play of recent hands. It's definitely not a default play of mine.

Also, the postflop is more interesting anyway. Just pretend I had A3s instead where a PFR would be decent, and we would have the exact same situation postflop.