skill vs. luck

Norb · #1 12-16-2006, 07:56 PM

Recently I had a discussion with some friends, what kind of Poker and which type of Poker game has the most favorable skill vs. luck ratio. We discussed about several kinds of Poker games (Draw Poker, 5/7 Stud, Omaha, Hold'em etc.) and also about different types of games, i. ex. different betting structures (fixed limit, pot limit, no limit), different game types (ring games, tourney type etc.), different number of participants (full ring, short handed, heads up) etc.

Does somebody made already some research about this subject?
What are your opinions about this matter? For example, if I would play only fixed limit Texas Hold'em full ring cash games, I would gain the best from my players experience and my skill. Or something like this. I'm very interested in your personal point of view about this subject!

Thanks a lot in advance for your opinions!

Best regards,

Norbert

Unknown Soldier · #2 12-16-2006, 08:49 PM

impossible to quantify skill, if you want an intuitive answer then the answer is all of them. Just depends on how good you are in relation to your opponents. In regards to tournaments or cash games, then you need to state how long you are playing the cash game for. If it's one hand I'd say tournaments. Full game/6-max? Again depends on how good you are in relation to your opponents. I'd say new players would have an easier time playing 5cd simply because it's a bit less complex then the others. (2 betting rounds instead of 4), however you might not be very good at Hold-em. Do you see why this is an impossible question to answer?

Gonso · #3 12-16-2006, 09:41 PM

Tmwstw makes some good points, but I still feel that NLHE is the Cadillac. Just my opinion.

Unknown Soldier · #4 12-16-2006, 10:02 PM

its my favourite too, but that's because it is a good balance of incomplete information (5cd is too little, stud games have too much), other reasons too; simplicity is one (of the rules). But that doesn't mean that you have a bigger edge, say if you and your opponent have the same skill difference (whatever that means) in all the games.

Gonso · #5 12-16-2006, 10:29 PM

It's not so much that for as it is the advantages better players have in controlling bet sizes. A superior player has a better ability to fine-tune bets/raises and give opponent max chance to make errors.

Unknown Soldier · #6 12-16-2006, 10:31 PM

different games require different skills, controlling pot sizes is one of the skils in NLHE, in 5cd this is pretty basic, but the game has other skills involved.

PantsOnFire · #7 12-17-2006, 07:17 PM

Pot Limit Holdem is widely held by most top pro poker players as the game requiring the most skill. I'm not really sure why.

Norb · #8 12-18-2006, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pot Limit Holdem is widely held by most top pro poker players as the game requiring the most skill. I'm not really sure why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your answer. Interestingly, this ist exactly my personal opinion. As far as I know, nowadays Hold'em is concidered the Poker game, which is requiring (and also rewarding) the most skill. In case of the pot limit betting structure, a player has a handy tool to induce wrong play by his opponents, but, on the other side, it limits the betting amount in the first betting rounds. This will avoid that some opponent might play one of those no-brainer short stack strategys, which are famous short term winning methods in NLHE.

senjitsu · #9 12-18-2006, 02:44 AM

Manson Malmuth has a lot of good pieces on this in poker essays vol I and II (maybe volume III as well, but i havent gotten around to reading that one yet). He places the no- and spread limit games (nlhe and pot limit omaha) as the ones with the smallest luck factor and limit omaha hi only as the one with the largest.

abcjnich · #10 12-18-2006, 12:08 PM

I don't think any games have a huge luck factor in the long run. Razz probably has the biggest luck factor of any game.

In terms of skill, nlhe takes the most. This is because you are able to make more plays regarding overbets of the pot. This is especially present preflop while raising from the blinds.

Also, nlhe has the psychology factor that limit games do not. Limit games can be beat by playing a certain way for every situation, every time (rarely mixing it up). NL this not the case.

Postflop there is almost nothing different between plhe and nlhe. The difference is preflop. In nlhe you can massively overbet the pot preflop (something pros and good players postflop don't do). You can also massively overbet it postflop, again something pros don't do.

Example: you are playing a pro heads up. In a pot limit game the pro will win 90% of the time (relative figure). In nl, going all in preflop everyhand significantly reduces those odds. Also, on hands where you flop a draw and the pro flops a set and you go all in, he is hard pressed to call because he knows in the long run he will win more than 25% of the time.