Card Dead in MTT - When to start calling/trying to steal

[MrHorace]

I searched for posts on this topic, but didn't find any, but if there are, please point me to them.

In multi-table tournaments, where you don't get cards or get playable cards out of position, when do you start deviating from standards and simply call with questionable hands or raise trying to steal.

I'm talking about hands like J7o, A8o in EP, and other hands that have no steal value.

Is there an M level at which you should loosen your standards considerably for a hand or three to see what happens?

Thanks,
David

[RonFezBuddy]

Read this post by Bond about stack sizes. Also, don't call, shove.

Things it Took me a while to learn - Stack Sizes

[Tackleberry]

I often asked myself the same question. Over the time I recognized (yet not completely but I work on it) that the question is wrong.

Why? In MTT you always should take the line which has the most EV. In other words, if a certain move in a certain situation has a positive expectation, take it. If not - let it go.

Concerning your question: there is NO point (excepted with an M in the red/dead zone maybe) where limping with J7o or A8o (in EP) has a positive expectation. If you instead push a hand like J7o because you estimate the remaining opponents to "nearly" never call you because of a) your supertight image (actually related to you being card-dead) and b) their nitty play, then it´s nice.

Never do it just because you think that you´ve waited long enough and have to make some move now.

=> Any move must have a positive expectation, otherwise its nonsense.

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Is there an M level at which you should loosen your standards considerably for a hand or three to see what happens?

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Any M-level has it´s own range of playable hands. Hands which are crappy with an M of 20 get playable with an M of 10 and vice versa. So - surely you loosen up your standards with decreasing M. But this is mainly related to your <u>raising/pushing</u>-standard, not your calling-standard!

[ssnyc]

calling=bad at this stage and with your proposed stack...raise/folding is bad...

fold or shove until you have a stack that is playable...choose less hands and play them hard

[MrHorace]

Thanks, this makes a LOT of sense. As I've been thinking about it, I realize that what you said (Any move must have +EV) is really the key.
And I do understand that shoving is better than calling/raising when you get to the M&lt;10 say. I have to admit I'm having difficulty adapting this concept, but I've gotten scorched a few times of late by not shoving that I think I'm learning. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[hamnegger]

stealing is very very situational . do not get into absolute moves. i don't always c-bet. some ppl say hu always c-bet.sometimes i just give up if i fel he's not folding high % enough. so i c-bet 90% of the time hu.

here are 2 situational plays i made one just now.100 buy in tropicana ac. blinds are 200- 400 w ante of 50. girl utg+1 limps. she has been tight solid and played well. bb is also tight solid. im in sb w 93suited and i shove 6k. bb is not calling w/o a big hand he thought then mucked kq (he showed me bc we had ben talking whole tourn) she mucked too. they both knew i MIGHT be FOS but they are tight they want to wait for a good spot which made this a good spot for me.what also helped me was i was super card dead and had been playing apparently real tight to anyone paying attention.

a few minutes ago online a player who has limped a few times open limps w 9.8 bb in mp. this tells me a) he's weak b) he's a donkey for not shoving. the prior open limps tell me he aint sloplayin. c) he aint callin when i shove. i had 10bb and k9s in cutoff or button.i shoved and won the pot

this is all situational and "feel" oriented play. look for these advantageous spot and dont be afraid to pull the trigger. sometimes youll be wrong or someone behind you wakes up w a big hand but youll still suk out sometimes.

[hagbard celine]

hamnegger is absolutely relatively right.

Late game is where all your observations come into play, and you need to be on the lookout for profitable spots. There's no real recipe for what hands to shove from what positions (although 4cardstraight has a post somewhere regarding an unexploitable shoving range with 10-12BB).

There's a couple of great threads in the sticky about restealing, and Bond18's running series "Things it took me a while to learn" addresses some of your concerns, as others have mentioned (The whole series can be found in his blog at tworags.com).

Ultimately, if players are calling too tight, you can be stealing/restealing light. But a keen awareness as to how your opponents are playing is necessary to make these judgements.

Oh yeah, and as someone else pointed out, try not to run JTs into QQ.

[MrHorace]

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Oh yeah, and as someone else pointed out, try not to run JTs into QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
The key word is try. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Seems that always happens that when it comes time to shove, lonely opponent wakes up w/killer hand....Such is poker.

[MrHorace]

Thanks hamnegger for the comments as to needing at some point here to make decisions based on feel to some extent in these situations.