3 bet gets 4 bet deep in Sunday Million

[Bakes]

[ QUOTE ]
lots of writing in this thread, might look at it later

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, don't bother. The posters who have responded already have more experience in this type of situation than you anyway.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think AQ qualifies as a "very strong hand" here,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only are we WAY ahead of his range, but we also have a hand that is super easy to play postflop, and position to make it even easier.

[ QUOTE ]
it has zero showdown value on a pot played down to the river over a series of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

He will almost always c-bet, but we will win the pot at showdown on the river with ace high a very significant percent of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
and you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again. Ace high has butt loads of value here. We don't need to hit the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Are those of you who advocate a call going to float every missed flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You float with air. We have a hand that has value. We call the flop because we think our hand is best. Not because we plan on bluffing with ace high later.

[ QUOTE ]
If so, you are turning AQ into a delayed rather than immediate bluff, and you're putting your whole stack at risk to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
You also are going to get buried a small percentage of the time you hit the flop, probably equal to or even greater than the small percentage of the time that you'll be able to stack Villain when you make a slightly larger big hand than him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we have position, I think we will stack him more often than he will stack us. Pot control, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
I think a point that gets overlooked in the whole "turning it into a bluff" school of thought is that the presence of the A and Q in your hand make it significantly less likely that you are going to face a 4bet. Reraising with AQ is therefore more +cEV than reraising with 72o.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right about AQ > 72o, but your logic is not conclusive. Sure, there are fewer combinations of AK he will shove against us with, but there are also fewer combinations of AJ and AT. The fact that there is one ace less in the deck probably hurts our equity more than it helps us. The consensus here is that we should call a 4-bet if 3-betting is the correct play, which means we want him shoving AJ, AT, etc.

[ZeeJustin]

Todd, just to clarify, I'm calling a c-bet on most flops, although I would fold on scary boards like K98 that are very likely to hit him. Kings are the worst card in the deck, and Jacks are pretty bad too, although I don't necessarily have to fold if those cards hit. For example I will call a c-bet on the K22 flop.

If he fires again on the turn, I'm most likely folding, but not necessarily.

That's not a big leak for us, since I will most likely flat call on the Q or A high flop as well. Double barreling is obviously risky for him, and probably won't be common.

If I call his c-bet on the flop, the turn goes check check, and he bets the river, we can still call sometimes with ace high, although generally we will fold. Knowing when to call the river with ace high is far beyond the scope of this thread though.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

[ QUOTE ]
Todd, just to clarify, I'm calling a c-bet on most flops, although I would fold on scary boards like K98 that are very likely to hit him. Kings are the worst card in the deck, and Jacks are pretty bad too, although I don't necessarily have to fold if those cards hit. For example I will call a c-bet on the K22 flop.

If he fires again on the turn, I'm most likely folding, but not necessarily.

That's not a big leak for us, since I will most likely flat call on the Q or A high flop as well. Double barreling is obviously risky for him, and probably won't be common.

If I call his c-bet on the flop, the turn goes check check, and he bets the river, we can still call sometimes with ace high, although generally we will fold. Knowing when to call the river with ace high is far beyond the scope of this thread though.

[/ QUOTE ]

plz tell me you are betting somewhere here

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Todd, just to clarify, I'm calling a c-bet on most flops, although I would fold on scary boards like K98 that are very likely to hit him. Kings are the worst card in the deck, and Jacks are pretty bad too, although I don't necessarily have to fold if those cards hit. For example I will call a c-bet on the K22 flop.

If he fires again on the turn, I'm most likely folding, but not necessarily.

That's not a big leak for us, since I will most likely flat call on the Q or A high flop as well. Double barreling is obviously risky for him, and probably won't be common.

If I call his c-bet on the flop, the turn goes check check, and he bets the river, we can still call sometimes with ace high, although generally we will fold. Knowing when to call the river with ace high is far beyond the scope of this thread though.

[/ QUOTE ]

plz tell me you are betting somewhere here

[/ QUOTE ]

It's often correct to play passively against very aggressive opponents, especially when we have a hand with show down value that we are not willing to play for our whole stack.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

lol no need to patronize, i'm saying that you will get more checks with moderate showdown value on later streets that we need to bet vs, and more bets with air, tat's a fact, jack

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
If he fires again on the turn, I'm most likely folding, but not necessarily.

That's not a big leak for us, since I will most likely flat call on the Q or A high flop as well. Double barreling is obviously risky for him, and probably won't be common.


[/ QUOTE ]

Justin:

We could probably debate this for the next 20 years. Just to respond to your point about double barreling, I think double barreling is going to be fairly risk-free for Villain, who has us outchipped. When we get to the turn, a 1/2 pot bet from Villain will risk only the value of the bet for him while putting Hero's entire stack at risk, because he will be at the point of no return. Therefore, I think you should be facing a 2nd barrel here virtually always, whether you will or not, who knows?

I will concede that you've had more success smoothcalling pre with AQ than I've had with 3betting it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]:

(From www.zeejustin.com, WSOP 2K event Day 2)
So two orbits later, a seemingly identical hand came up. It folded to Johnny in middle position, and he raised to 11,500. I called in the small blind with AQs, and the big blind also came along. The flop came AJ2. I checked, the BB checked, and Johnny bet 22,500. I check raised to 50,000 again. This time, the big blind decided to play along, and he called all-in for the 20,000 or so chips he had. And yet again, Johnny moved all-in. I only had about 70,000 chips left, and the pot was huge at this point, so I called. Unfortunately Johnny had AK and it looked like my tournament was over. The turn was a jack pairing the board, and the river was a miracle queen. Apparently Johnny has a bit of a temper. He snatched the queen from off the board, crumbled it up in his hand it threw at across the table. The floormen didn’t like this too much and they gave him a 27 hand penalty. That’s really brutal when the blinds and antes are that big.

(From www.pokerpages.com, WSOP Main Event Day 2)
Sorel Mizzi took down a huge pot on a semi suck-out. Sorel raises under the gun and it was reraised by Todd Terry to 17K. Sorel called. The flop came Ah Qs 6h. Sorel led out for 20K and Terry popped it to 60K. Sorel had Terry slightly covered and moved all in and Terry insta-called with Ac Qd.

Sorel couldn't have liked what he saw as he probably had thought any king or queen were outs of his since he had Kh Qh but now he was drawing solely to the flush. The river was the Js meaning Mizzi had one of 9 cards or he was going to be crippled. And just like online it comes! The 2h and Terry is done while Mizzi now has topped the 400K mark.


I'll see you at the Borgata.

[Bakes]

I didn't realize we were in position the first time, I don't think a call is that bad at all.

Also

[ QUOTE ]
And just like online it comes! The 2h

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh...people are retarded.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Also

[ QUOTE ]
And just like online it comes! The 2h

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh...people are retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The river was the Js meaning Mizzi had one of 9 cards or he was going to be crippled.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Justin:

We could probably debate this for the next 20 years. Just to respond to your point about double barreling, I think double barreling is going to be fairly risk-free for Villain, who has us outchipped. When we get to the turn, a 1/2 pot bet from Villain will risk only the value of the bet for him while putting Hero's entire stack at risk, because he will be at the point of no return. Therefore, I think you should be facing a 2nd barrel here virtually always, whether you will or not, who knows

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case (and it most certainly is not), then calling with AQ would be ridiculously profitable. You can float the flop and move in on the turn every time. Sure, he will have a hand he can call with sometimes, but not often if he's double barreling every time. Also, we have him dominated enough that often when he does have a hand, we will have a better one.

And as to the two hands you posted. Neither one is even remotely similar.