Question on raising/"one chip rule"

[QuadsOverQuads]

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Yeah, I was meaning to get around to saying something about these two contradictory statements. This is such a fuzzy topic people are even arguing with themselves in this thread. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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There is nothing contradictory in what I said.

The action, as posed, is a clear raise.

However, if a truly ambiguous situation were to arise (again: this is not one), then rather than creating this Rube Goldberg system of which-chip-went-in-first/etc/etc, the best solution is simply to ask the player to clarify their intent. In such a case, I would also seek further clarification from my floor (out of the box) so that the apparent ambiguity in the rules could be addressed, rather than leaving a soft spot in my game that could be exploited by angle-shooters in the future.


q/q

[Gonso]

Where are you Q/Q? Vegas? Have you dealt in more than one house where you are? I ask because what you're doing is the opposite of what the majority of the industry seems to be doing.

[PokerDealerSTL]

I asked yesterday for anyone to give me some specific cardrooms where this is "clearly" a raise, and I would call that casino and confirm this. No one has one specific room that this is a raise let alone three that I asked for.

I took a poll at work today from players and all the dealers on my shift (i am a supervisor) and every player and dealer alike called that just a call. Not even just the players that just play in our cardroom, players that play all over town and other places like tunica, vegas, ect.

This has probably been the most standard casino rule for the past ten years. Other things change.. this has not.

[sportbettor]

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I asked yesterday for anyone to give me some specific cardrooms where this is "clearly" a raise, and I would call that casino and confirm this. No one has one specific room that this is a raise let alone three that I asked for.

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Let me say that I agree with you that this is a call pretty much everywhere. But since you keep asking I can tell you one where its a raise. Casino Real in Manteca, CA. But its only because they have the "anti-one chip rule" as I like to call it. On the wall is a sign that something to the effect "Any oversized chip put into the pot is a raise unless it is a stated a call" (wording is not exact but this is the gist). Since a single $10 chip would be a raise in this case, so would two $5 chips. Ive played in a lot of cardrooms and this is the only place I can think of where this would be a raise.

[Gonso]

What happens if it's $15 to call, and a $25 chip is thrown in? They make they guy put in another $5 to complete the raise?

Edit: Googled it, it's got all of 5 poker tables in the place by the look of it.

http://www.casinocity.com/us/ca/manteca/casreal/

Is there one major spot anywhere that does this though? Commerce, Foxwoods, any major LV houses?

[pokerswami]

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We do have a half-bet rule. We call it the "50% rule". The important thing to note here is that this will always be overridden by the single oversized chip rule.

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In most cardrooms, the half-bet rule applies only to limit poker, not no-limit poker. While some cardrooms may use the half-bet rule for no-limit, most do not.

This is specifically addressed in Robert's rules of poker:

SECTION 14 - NO LIMIT AND POT-LIMIT

"3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

4. Multiple all-in wagers, each of an amount too small to qualify as a raise, still act as a raise and reopen the betting if the resulting wager size to a player qualifies as a raise. Example: Player A bets $100 and Player B raises $100 more, making the total bet $200. If Player C goes all in for less than $300 total (not a full $100 raise), and Player A calls, then Player B has no option to raise again, because he wasn’t fully raised. (Player A could have raised, because Player B raised.)

5. “Completing the bet” is a limit poker wager type only, and not used at big-bet poker.

[kerr]

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Does your house have a half-the-bet-is-a-raise rule? Even if it did, I think the relevant principle is that any bet which can be interpreted as both a raise and a call should be interpreted as a call.

Another case: The game is $4-8, on the turn. Someone bets $8. The next player puts in three $5 chips. Is this a raise? In most cardrooms I play in, this would indeed be a raise, because the player has put in at least half the bet without comment.

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Whether it's Limit or No Limit, I say it's a raise to $16.

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We do have a half-bet rule. We call it the "50% rule". The important thing to note here is that this will always be overridden by the single oversized chip rule.

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In most cardrooms, the half-bet rule applies only to limit poker, not no-limit poker. While some cardrooms may use the half-bet rule for no-limit, most do not.

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Seeing as I regularly play in "Brettski's House", I think I know how it works there. Brett was indeed talking about No Limit and the 50% rule, not to be confused with the Half-Bet Rule for Limit. So let me expand on OP's scenario:

1/2 NL game:
P1 raises to $6
P2 throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything. This is a call of $6.
P3 then throws out a 5 and four 1s. This is a raise to $10.

The minimum raise is to $10. If P3 bet $7, according to the 50% rule, he must take $1 back, and his bet is actually a call of $6. If P3 bet $8 or $9, his raise is >=50% of a min-raise, and the ruling is he must complete the min-raise to $10.

Correct Brett? However, while I accept this to be the rule, I am not sure that this is standard across most cardrooms. Robert's Rule 14-11 states: If a player tries to bet or raise less than the legal minimum and has more chips, the wager must be increased to the proper size. The wager is brought up to the sufficient amount only, no greater size. Does this not imply that if P3 put in a 5 and two 1s that this should be deemed a raise to $10, at odds with Brettski's 50% rule?

[Brettski]

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In most cardrooms, the half-bet rule applies only to limit poker, not no-limit poker. While some cardrooms may use the half-bet rule for no-limit, most do not.

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This probably requires some clarification.

The 50% rule that we apply is used to determine what constitutes a raise and what constitutes a call. It applies to limit and no limit games alike. The rule is as follows:

A bet of less than 50% of the previous bet or raise shall only be considered a call. A bet of 50% or more of the previous bet or raise shall be considered a raise. In this instance, the player shall be required to make the bet up to the minimum raise amount.

Here's two limit examples, and two no limit examples.

* Example 1. The game is 10/20 limit holdem. On the turn (a $20 betting round) Player A bets $20. Player B throws out 5 x $5 chips. Since the extra amount ($5) on top of the called portion is less than 50% of the previous bet or raise ($20) is is deemed to be a call.

* Example 2. The game is 10/20 limit holdem. On the turn (a $20 betting round) Player A bets $20. Player B throws out 6 x $5 chips. Since the extra amount ($10) on top of the called portion is 50% or more of the previous bet or raise ($20) is is deemed to be a raise. The player will be required to make up the extra $10.

* Example 3. The game is 10/20 no limit holdem. On the turn Player A bets $20. Player B raises to $50 in total. Player C throws out 12 x $5 chips. Since the extra amount ($10) on top of the called portion is less than 50% of the previous bet or raise ($30) is is deemed to be a call.

* Example 4. The game is 10/20 no limit holdem. On the turn Player A bets $20. Player B raises to $50 in total. Player C throws out 3 x $25 chips. Since the extra amount ($25) on top of the called portion is 50% or more of the previous bet or raise ($30) is is deemed to be a raise. The player will be required to make the bet up to $80 in total.

[Brettski]

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In most cardrooms, the half-bet rule applies only to limit poker, not no-limit poker. While some cardrooms may use the half-bet rule for no-limit, most do not.

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Following on from my previous post, the 50% rule (half-bet rule) is commonly confused with what we call the 100% rule. The 100% rule applies to situations in no limit games (or pot ration games like pot limit and half-pot) where a player goes all-in for an underraise. The rule is as follows:

In the case that a player is all-in for an amount that is less than 100% of the previous bet or raise, a player subsequent player can not act in respect to only that amount.

Sounds a little confusing? That's 'coz it is at first. I'll step through a couple of examples, but remember two fundamental things about raising in no limit:
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Before you can raise, you must first call!
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] An underraise amount is not a legal bet or raise!

Here goes.

* The game is 1/2 No Limit Holdem. On the flop, Player A bets $10. Player B then goes all-in for $17. Player C now wants to raise the minimum. What is total bet?
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Well, the first thing Player C must do is call. After all, before he can raise, he must first call. So he calls $10.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Now, the only thing up for debate is how much he can raise. Since the last legal bet or raise was $10, he can raise by an additional $10 minimum. So his total bet will be $27.

Now let's make it more tricky.

* The game is 1/2 No Limit Holdem. On the flop, Player A bets $10. Player B calls. Player C then goes all-in for $17. The action is folded back around to Player A. Player A now wants to raise the minimum. What is total bet?
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Well, the first thing Player A must do is call. So he calls for a total of $17.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Now, the only thing up for debate is how much he can raise. We know that the extra $7 was an underraise ('coz it's less than 100% of the previous bet or raise), so it doesn't count; it's almost like it doesn't exist! Since the last legal bet or raise was $10 - and was made by Player A - he'd be raising himself, wouldn't he? And we can't do that in poker. Short version: Player A cannot raise.

To get back to the original point, these are our rules on the "full-bet rule." They only apply to situations in pot ratio games where a player is all-in for an underraise. I think you'll find this rule is pretty common. However if there are other rules and interpretations out there in other casinos and clubs, it doesn't make them more or less valid. It just makes them different.

[Brettski]

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Seeing as I regularly play in "Brettski's House", I think I know how it works there. Brett was indeed talking about No Limit and the 50% rule, not to be confused with the Half-Bet Rule for Limit. So let me expand on OP's scenario:

1/2 NL game:
P1 raises to $6
P2 throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything. This is a call of $6.
P3 then throws out a 5 and four 1s. This is a raise to $10.

The minimum raise is to $10. If P3 bet $7, according to the 50% rule, he must take $1 back, and his bet is actually a call of $6. If P3 bet $8 or $9, his raise is >=50% of a min-raise, and the ruling is he must complete the min-raise to $10.

Correct Brett?

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100% correct. Pardon the pun.

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However, while I accept this to be the rule, I am not sure that this is standard across most cardrooms. Robert's Rule 14-11 states: If a player tries to bet or raise less than the legal minimum and has more chips, the wager must be increased to the proper size. The wager is brought up to the sufficient amount only, no greater size. Does this not imply that if P3 put in a 5 and two 1s that this should be deemed a raise to $10, at odds with Brettski's 50% rule?

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The only comment I would make about Robert's Rules in this matter is that this is not what we do at Crown (yes, it appears that what he's saying conflicts with our 50% rule). I guess that if, under those rules, I bet $1,000 and my opponent makes the bet $1,001, he would have to make the bet up to $2,000. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]