Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods? - Page 2

GTL · #11 10-11-2007, 01:50 PM

if it happened exactly as the op described it, villain clearly folded. the action of tossing his cards forward without calling the bet is a fold.

lonn19 · #12 10-11-2007, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a case where "cards speak" is the key matter, because the hand is not at showdown. Villain had to call a bet to get to showdown. Regardless of what Villain's cards say, the question is whether his action of placing the cards in the center and declaring "I had you til the river" constituted a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

ding ding ding

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, cards don't speak until he makes the call.

budblown · #13 10-11-2007, 01:51 PM

just tell us what happened dammit

KenProspero · #14 10-11-2007, 01:52 PM

Close Call.

Ok, first of all, The Showdown Muppet gets repeatedly kicked in the nuts. I think we can all agree on that.

Now as to the ruling -- this is very fact specific. Were the cards thrown towards the muck? How far before the muck? Did the dealer think he mucked his hand?

If so, since he didn't bet, the hand was mucked. Even though a mucked hand can be retreived in the interest of justice, I don't think that applies in this case. (If he had made the bet, then mucked face up, I'd go the other way).

Although he didn't say 'fold' Depending on the exact words, the dealer may say he interpreted the combination of actions and words as a fold.

Overall -- I want to say that the cards were mucked, and if the Dealer gives me any indication that this happened before the muppet spoke up, I'd rule accordingly. Likewise, if I can reach that interpretation on my own, I do so.

However, I don't think that merely turning your cards face up kills the hand. It's unfortunate that the showdown muppet spoke, however this happens. Without something specific, I think it's a live hand and Villian called timely, and thus wins.

Pscam10 · #15 10-11-2007, 01:54 PM

"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

0524432 · #16 10-11-2007, 01:56 PM

The dealer did not even make an attempt to make a ruling, she immediately called for the floor, who eventually called over a higher level of floor management.

*TT* · #17 10-11-2007, 01:57 PM

Sorry guys, I've seen this exact same scenario happen before. If the floor is competent then the hand is ruled live provided the villain calls or raises and the loudmouth is given a time out/table change/warning.

this of course assumes the hand is heads up, if its multiway then the ruling will be different.

SellingtheDrama · #18 10-11-2007, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer did not even make an attempt to make a ruling, she immediately called for the floor, who eventually called over a higher level of floor management.

[/ QUOTE ]

Smart dealer - didn't know and got help.

And my ruling would be villain never expressly folded, and still had the option to call. Bigmouth is a freaking idiot.
If the cards weren't quite where I think they are, I could change my mind.

grdred944 · #19 10-11-2007, 01:59 PM

Nothing in your narrative indicates that the dealer grabbed at the cards or asked the player if he folded. Unless the room has a stated policy as to the use of the line (e.g. chips over the line are in-play and hands tossed over the line are mucked), the hand is live and the straight flush holds up.

0524432 · #20 10-11-2007, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine looking down at a full ring table from above. Within the green felt there is a ring which separates the middle of the table with the area the players divide up depending on their seat pos (and behind each cupholder at Foxwoods anyways) to stack their chips and keep their cards. Villain had turned his hand face up over the line where cards in play are kept (in front of the players) and into the area where the pot and muck are.