The ol' hidden high denomination chip trick

[SheridanCat]

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at the bottom of a stack is cleary visible in my mind. The OP didn't say anythin about the chip being in the middle, it was at the bottom

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In the context of the OP's post, the chip was hidden. It was a single black chip at the botton of a small stack of blue. Clearly that was hidden and the floor made an incorrect ruling.

The rule is simple and keeping your high denomination chips visible is an easy thing to do.

Regards,

T

[RR]

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I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style].

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No it is clear that those chips are separate. When chips are seperated like that it is clear they need to be looked at closely. In another post I tired to describe the best way to stack your chips, you have done it much better then did.

[bav]

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I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style].

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No it is clear that those chips are separate. When chips are seperated like that it is clear they need to be looked at closely. In another post I tired to describe the best way to stack your chips, you have done it much better then did.

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Once again, Randy hits the mark. I completely agree. Long as there is a separate and visible stack of odd denominations, it points out to any would-be opponent that there is more there than just reds and he should verify it before committing.

Mind you, a floor or dealer or another player may grump at you someday about it. Whatever. I think >9 out of 10 of us will be very happy with your chip arrangement.

[schroedy]

While OP was at the table, my "spidey senses" on this one tingle that it is the caller and not the bettor who is shooting the angle. Once he saw that he was badly beat, he began to look for an out. As an aside, what kind of player doesn't have enough of a problem calling an all in with two pair against a possible straight to ask for a count, if for no other reason than to give herself time to think through the possibilities?

In any event, as a converting from limit, relatively new NL player, I REALLY appreciate all these discussions on dirty tricks -- permitted or otherwise.

I kind of admire the guys who try and trap the "rules nits" by making a binding action and then attempting to take it back. In addition to the "inadvertant" overbet mentioned here, there was a thread about a year ago on a guy who pushed his stack forward, but behind the line and then announced, "I check." Two players forced him to bet all in as forward motion was binding. They both then quickly called, but were not so happy when the forced bettor flipped AA.

The rules nits, especially when they are trying to take advantage of an infraction, deserve to be totally cleaned out. IMO.

[Dominic]

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What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

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Yes, he's a victim of an angle shooter. Hiding your chips ain't kosher.

Here you are playing what seems to be a happy, friendly NL1/2 game. The guy one away from you says "all-in" and puts out two nice, neat stacks. Both are obviously 4 chips high. One seems to have all red. The other seems to have all blue. You can't see there's a black at the bottom of the blues without either touching his chips, or putting your head fairly close to the stack, or asking. One doesn't have to be an idiot to fall for this. We're not playing NL10/25 here.

I've been surprised to find out after I was well into a hand that my opponent had a couple blacks hidden, and I found myself wishing I hadn't played quite the way I did. I don't recall ever saying "call" to an all-in and being surprised by what I hadda cough up, but I'm not so silly as to think it couldn't happen to me, though. I could see being tired or distracted and being surprised by such a thing.

Let's think back a couple weeks to a hand involving a 2+2er. $100 pot at the river, his opponent says "jacks". 2+2er flashes a ten that made a pair of tens and mucks. Guy who said "jacks" tosses his cards to the dealer face down. 2+2er says "well can I at least see the jacks?" The cards are turned over and there are no jacks there. What kinda IDIOT falls for that? Well... all of us, eventually. We just aren't always on constant guard against such things.

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in both your examples, the "victims" only have themselves to blame. Although, the guy who said Jacks is a cheating bastard.

The other guy who put his stacks in the middle of the table - exactly how is he supossed to do this? Should he announce the mount? Should he let everyone know there's a big chip in one stack, what?

He did nothing wrong.

[bav]

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While OP was at the table, my "spidey senses" on this one tingle that it is the caller and not the bettor who is shooting the angle.

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Not a chance. Not the slightest chance. When the angle shooter sat down I knew he was intending to do this. I could see it coming 30 minutes before it happened from the way he bought in with a black chip and quietly dropped another black on the table when he got the stack of reds. And I could definitely see it as the bet went out--the stacks were ever so carefully slid out, very neatly, keeping the black from ever showing more than an edge-on view.

I'm still not sure I shouldn't have spoken up. But if the floorperson had ruled correctly (according to Randy) the caller should only have been on the hook for $44, while if the caller had won he would have picked up $143. So my speaking up would have potentially cost the guy $99 of freeroll money. That particular thought makes me feel better about staying mute.

[bav]

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The other guy who put his stacks in the middle of the table - exactly how is he supossed to do this? Should he announce the mount? Should he let everyone know there's a big chip in one stack, what?

He did nothing wrong.

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YES! EXACTLY that. Either announce the amount of the bet, or separate out the black so it's clear it's there. duh. When you put the chips in nice neat stacks of 4 or 5, there is an implication that they are all the same color. If you've played poker for 10 years you know to be careful. If you're 22yo and are visiting Vegas for the first time and are playing in the smallest NL game you can find, you shouldn't be subjected to this kinda crap.

Guess we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I think the guy is a cheating bastard and I'm not gonna be unconvinced of it. I saw it happen. I'm positive it was intentional. I don't think he should get to profit by hiding the size of his bet.

[Thomas Johnson]

Here's a story from the Wynn about 10 days ago.

Sitting at the 1-3 NL game, a strong player 2 to my left has about 3K in front of him. A seemingly loose ad crazy player immediately to my left sat down earlier with about 300, and was down to about $45 or so. I saw him reach into his pocket and pull out a 500 chip and 2 100 chips, and put them in play between hands. My first instinct was that I was the only one who noticed this, and that he was possibly making a move on the guy to his right. Sure enough, a couple of hands later, this came up:

Multiway unraised pot, flop 448 rainbow. Both of these players are in the hand, 3 chip bet on the flop ($9) and a call. Turn comes blankish, and the big stack bets about 30 this time, and a call. The angle-shooter has about 6 $3 chips left, and a 500 and 2 100s hidden at the bottom of that stack. The river comes a third 4, and the bigstack says "uh, I'll just put you all in..." and the angle-shooter immediately calls and throws in 700 and change. Right away, the table is in shock, as they had no idea he was so deep, and the bigstack is a bit surprised as well, and he says "well, that's OK, I put you all in anyway..." and rolls over the case 4 for quads.

I suspect the angle-shooter had 88 for the flopped boat, but who knows.

We all agreed it served him right for hiding the big chips.

[RR]

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I think the guy is a cheating bastard and I'm not gonna be unconvinced of it. I saw it happen. I'm positive it was intentional. I don't think he should get to profit by hiding the size of his bet.

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This is the key to being able to rule on these matters. You can get a good feel for if the guy was intentionally hiding the chip etc. This is much harder to get a feel for from a description online.

[schroedy]

I started a response to your response to me, then trashed it.

Basically, I feel that you should have outed the guy when you saw it starting up.

And also that the floor and the dealer made the wrong rulings and also it is possible that all three were in on it (not so much overtly in the case of the floor and dealer, but in the sense that A/S might be a good tipper, etc.).

Maybe you should even now take it up with the management of the room and think about changing rooms if they don't do anything about it.

One thing as players that we need to communicate with management clearly on is that cheating will not be tolerated. If we feel something is cheating, we owe it to the community to bring to the attention of management and to impose sanctions if management does not address the situation promptly and fairly. Vote with your feet.