let's get the facts straight: poker makes money

[Adebisi]

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I've always considered one of the worst nightmares of a casino is the large pit player who converts to poker. Take a guy who is willing to lose 10k over a weekend out in the pit. He'll give 100s of k in action at BJ, craps, whatever. And on each of those transactions the house will earn a percentage . If he converts to poker and plays at a game where he plays poorly in comparision to his opponents, then his opponents will earn that percentage. The house in that case is essentially left with a flat rate--the rake/time charge .


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The opposite goes too. Random mid-high stakes poker pros getting shitfaced and dropping 20-30k on blackjack or craps on a Saturday night probably isn't a rare occurance. Something that brings kids in their 20s who probably like to party and have wads of cash into the casino can't be all bad. Also, for BIG pit gamblers, there generally won't be a poker game big enough to pique their interest. A guy that plays $50,000 a hand baccarat isn't going to give a [censored] about the 400/800 mixed game going in the poker room.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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I've always considered one of the worst nightmares of a casino is the large pit player who converts to poker. Take a guy who is willing to lose 10k over a weekend out in the pit. He'll give 100s of k in action at BJ, craps, whatever. And on each of those transactions the house will earn a percentage . If he converts to poker and plays at a game where he plays poorly in comparision to his opponents, then his opponents will earn that percentage. The house in that case is essentially left with a flat rate--the rake/time charge .

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I've often disagreed with your logic (or perhaps your presentation) but you hit the nail on the head here. Add in the bad manners of the typical casino poker grinder and it's not hard to see why poker could be once again pushed aside if (or when) it losses popularity.

~ Rick

[dtf13]

Poker doesn't make money. Fact.

[Spiffysean]

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Poker doesn't make money. Fact.

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Really? What do you base this fact on? I've seen financial reports that indicate that poker makes a pretty consistent and steady ROI for the casinos, even after overhead and re-appropriation of funds.

Again, per sq/ft does it make as much as some other things? No.

But is it a draw? Does it bring people to the casino? Does it add to the casino's overall appeal?

I just don't get the arguement that poker in casinos is not a good/moneymaking idea. The numbers don't lie, first off. Second off, you can't discount the lure of the game, and what other "bells and whistles" casinos throw at you.

It works, right? Trust me when I say this... and this should smack you in the face with common sense...

Casinos are not in business because they waste time, money, or space with things that do not make them more profitable.

[AWLurch]

I will say that atleast this argument has brought up many reasons why the comps for poker players are the lowest compared to any other games, and for those of you that complain about the comps now realize that you are providing the least amount of revenue per customer than other games.

I am a poker dealer and I can attest that the biggest complaints that players whine about are that the comps are worse and worse, or insufficient. Atleast for those of you that do complain, this post will give you an insight as to why this may be the case. I am all for treating players right and providing good customer service, but you don't go to the movies expecting free popcorn. Poker rooms are a business with the goal of maximizing profits. Poker rooms must make proper decisions for not only its customers but its managers as well as shareholders.

[SenatorKevin]

You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Yes, shufflers are a very expensive way for the casino to earn additional profit. If utilized properly, they can make lots of extra money for the room. This means they need to be running most of the time. Too many leased shufflers sitting idle will cost more than they will earn. For this reason some rooms, especially small ones, should not have shufflers at every table. If a ten table room has 45% average occupancy, four or five shufflers is fine. These tables should obviously be opened first and closed last.

It's an interesting question whether a room with say 10 table, 45% occupancy would do better with ten shufflers or five. Would the extra hands earned when the room is full make enough to cover or exceed the cost of the idle time? My guess is no, but I don't have any evidence to prove which way is best, or to show the curves as average occupancy or rake rises or falls. **.

Keep in mind a shuffler is only good for the difference in hands dealt, not for all the hands. I've estimated that the best dealers will get one or two extra hands per hour, while the worst might get five or six, tops. Also,if the shuffler really helps a dealer that much, they are probably deathfully slow at multiple other aspects of dealing as well.

By now it's almost a novel idea, but games have been known to run just fine without shufflers at all.

** but if a room wanted to experiment, I'd be the one to analyze and graph in vivid detail. I just love making graphs :-)

[CORed]

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You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)

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True, but the shuffling machines increase hands per hour and therefore rake (or drop and hold for table games). The casinos wouldn't use them if the additional rake generated didn't offset (and then some) the cost of leasing them.

[raisebot]

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You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)

[/ QUOTE ]
The shuffle machines can now be bought and sold, without being leased.

http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_p.../deck_mate.asp

"Shuffle Master, Inc. is a licensed gaming supply company that provides products to casino customers. Due to the fact Shuffle Master is in a highly regulated industry, we generally do not sell our equipment to unlicensed individuals or organizations however, we have recently begun offering our Deck Mate® poker shuffler for private purchase and use for $15,795. Not available for purchase in Colorado, New Jersey, Washington or Texas. "

However, Shufflemaster has recently introduced the "iShuffle" (different versions being the i-deal and the i-shoe), which can track the order of the cards, and automatically "reset" the decks when the game is done. You'll see these slowly being introduced in the coming years, likely in pit games where game integrity means more to the house than poker. The iShuffle is the only shuffle machine offered by Shufflemaster currently only available by lease. Not sure if this version will ever be introduced to poker.

quoted from the Shufflemaster website-

http://www.shufflemaster.com/01_comp...asp?newsID=134
•i-Deal™: As Shuffle Master’s third generation single deck specialty shuffler, the i-Deal is the fastest of our single deck shufflers and features several key enhancements including standard card recognition technology that reads the rank and suit of each card being dealt and a deck-sorting function.

•i-Shoe™ intelligent shoe: A smart alternative to a traditional shoe, the i-Shoe increases baccarat and blackjack game security by reading the rank and suit of each card being dealt. Unique in its ability to learn to recognize any brand of unmarked playing card, the i-Shoe interfaces with an attractive display to post the outcome of each round.

[Acemanhattan]

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Poker doesn't make money. Fact.

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Really? What do you base this fact on? I've seen financial reports that indicate that poker makes a pretty consistent and steady ROI for the casinos, even after overhead and re-appropriation of funds.

Again, per sq/ft does it make as much as some other things? No.

But is it a draw? Does it bring people to the casino? Does it add to the casino's overall appeal?

I just don't get the arguement that poker in casinos is not a good/moneymaking idea. The numbers don't lie, first off. Second off, you can't discount the lure of the game, and what other "bells and whistles" casinos throw at you.

It works, right? Trust me when I say this... and this should smack you in the face with common sense...

Casinos are not in business because they waste time, money, or space with things that do not make them more profitable.

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I think in reality, poker is similar to the casinos pool, tommy bahamas store, health club, and fake diamond store. Are they important to have? Yes they are ammenities which are nice to have at a casino, an added bonus. But in reality, do you think they make up more than 3% of their bottom line? Prob not. Chevron gas stations are prob not making a ton of money off of the $.87 beef jerky and tic tacs sitting the counter, but people enjoy them, so there they sit.