Wisdom on Iraq

[Felix_Nietzsche]

I know Andy that you think this Dick Cheney quote puts him in a bad light but to me it shows Dick Cheney is a GENIUS!

Everything he said has come true. We have been in a long back-and-forth stalemate with insurgents for several years now. We have had some successes along the way but not enough to turn the tide.

We avoided war with Iraq for YEARS despite their numerous violations of the armistice. To allow this transgressions to continue is an invitation for foreign powers to ignore all treaties with the USA. To fail to act means that armistices with the USA are worthless. Transgressions of an armistice must be backed up with the resumption of war. All the WMD stuff was just icing on the cake.

Invading Iraq was the correct play. My beef has been with the post-war governing of Iraq. The mistakes made have been very damaging.... Dick Cheney would be a FAR SUPERIOR president to Bush.

[Msgr. Martinez]

[ QUOTE ]
I know Andy that you think this Dick Cheney quote puts him in a bad light but to me it shows Dick Cheney is a GENIUS!

Everything he said has come true. We have been in a long back-and-forth stalemate with insurgents for several years now. We have had some successes along the way but not enough to turn the tide.

We avoided war with Iraq for YEARS despite their numerous violations of the armistice. To allow this transgressions to continue is an invitation for foreign powers to ignore all treaties with the USA. To fail to act means that armistices with the USA are worthless. Transgressions of an armistice must be backed up with the resumption of war. All the WMD stuff was just icing on the cake.

Invading Iraq was the correct play. My beef has been with the post-war governing of Iraq. The mistakes made have been very damaging.... Dick Cheney would be a FAR SUPERIOR president to Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheney isn't dumb; he's just willing to say and do anything (including killing thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis) in order to make a few bucks.

[Phil153]

You have to realize that Iraq has been weakened greatly by sanctions and the actions of weapons inspectors from 1991 onwards. In 2002 it was a shell of its former power and military capability, and it was a far easier war.

The US made a huge blunder not rebuilding Iraq properly and winning over the people. Perhaps it was deliberate. But I think Iraq could have been a viable country by now if the rebuilding had been properly managed, Cheney's comments or no.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to realize that Iraq has been weakened greatly by sanctions and the actions of weapons inspectors from 1991 onwards. In 2002 it was a shell of its former power and military capability, and it was a far easier war.

The US made a huge blunder not rebuilding Iraq properly and winning over the people. Perhaps it was deliberate. But I think Iraq could have been a viable country by now if the rebuilding had been properly managed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem, as I see it, was attempting to rebuild or win over people at all. They are only necessary if you are trying to extend your sphere of influence (imperialism). If any of the so-called reasons for war were valid, then dismantling Iraq's ability to threaten the region or the US would be enough, and a UN-led peacekeeping operation or letting the region take the lead in helping rebuild Iraq would be warranted. Quite frankly, the US wanted Iraq for strategic and symbolic purposes and bit off way more than it could chew. It took a decade of internal struggles and world assistance to help formerly Yugoslavian states emerge and co-exist. We are on the wrong side of history by trying to make a single Iraq work. There never was a single Iraq before colonialism, and the peoples deserve a chance at self-determination. A "nation" is more than just artificial borders. Iraq as a nation only existed through extreme state power. It is failing and will continue to fail so long as we attempt to force a single nation on these disparate groups with tribal or religious identity much stronger than a national identity. Any rudimentary history of Iraq demonstrates that this was a disaster waiting to happen.

[ConstantineX]

[ QUOTE ]
I know Andy that you think this Dick Cheney quote puts him in a bad light but to me it shows Dick Cheney is a GENIUS!


[/ QUOTE ]



What it shows is that the Bush administration knew the issues and either failed to grasp them, or didn't carry them out properly. I've posted a couple times on a lecture given by a General Zinni about how the current US approach to Iraq was working. This war was badly bungled for political expediency.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
1991, Cheney: "...it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq."

[/ QUOTE ]

2003-2007: US gets involved in quagmire in Iraq, bungling along the way leads to 1000s dead, no change in strategy until Repubs lose Congress 3-1/2 years into the war


[ QUOTE ]
2007, FelixN: "[this] shows Dick Cheney is a GENIUS! Everything he said has come true."

[/ QUOTE ]

I just find this exchange funny.

[kickabuck]

Planning for an Iraqi war had been going on for years. So what? Why are any of the official reasons given by this administration for going to war less believable or factual given these 'revelations' you've put forth?

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem, as I see it, was attempting to rebuild or win over people at all. They are only necessary if you are trying to extend your sphere of influence (imperialism).

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's part of what you do once you destroy the govrnment in a volatile region. To achieve any possible goals a war could have (apart from a show of power), would require the installation of a semi stable government.

[ QUOTE ]
If any of the so-called reasons for war were valid, then dismantling Iraq's ability to threaten the region or the US would be enough, and a UN-led peacekeeping operation or letting the region take the lead in helping rebuild Iraq would be warranted.

[/ QUOTE ]
The UN is incompetent and bound by politics. The region's greatest power desires an Islamic theocracy. Realistically was the US or noone.

[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly, the US wanted Iraq for strategic and symbolic purposes and bit off way more than it could chew.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea why they went to war. This outcome was something that could be foreseen. There has to be an element of deliberate sabotage, or incompetence and corruption.

[ QUOTE ]
It took a decade of internal struggles and world assistance to help formerly Yugoslavian states emerge and co-exist. We are on the wrong side of history by trying to make a single Iraq work. There never was a single Iraq before colonialism, and the peoples deserve a chance at self-determination. A "nation" is more than just artificial borders. Iraq as a nation only existed through extreme state power. It is failing and will continue to fail so long as we attempt to force a single nation on these disparate groups with tribal or religious identity much stronger than a national identity. Any rudimentary history of Iraq demonstrates that this was a disaster waiting to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree that Iraq is a hotbed, a lot more could have been done. The civilian infrastructure hasn't been repaired. The electricity wasn't turned back on for years. That's just a sad joke. It took years to get the most basic public works done. Many oil wells haven't been repaired. And this is in a country that can pay for its own rebuilding by digging up the dollars in the ground. I think the situation would be quite different had a better job been done building Iraqi society. Yugoslavia had population supported genocide so it's kind of different - even Iraq isn't that f'ed up.

Anyway, I suggest reading this. It's a well known blog written by an Iraqi. I have no idea if it's genuine, but it's an interesting persepctive. Some of the older articles shed a lot of light on what the US was doing and not doing, and what they bungled.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Sometime you have to choose among two bad choices....
Going to Iraq was the correct play....Cheney knew that installing a new govt would be tough.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometime you have to choose among two bad choices....
Going to Iraq was the correct play....Cheney knew that installing a new govt would be tough.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree it was the right play. Containment was wroking as we have seen after the fact that Iraq was much weaker than advertised,

But say even if war was the right play... So he knew it would be tough. So then he pushed a war with way too few troops to secure the country, allowed the Iraqi Army and police forces to demobilize, resulting in hundreds of thousands of more unemployed with no security forces available, and calls it a success to date. And this qualifies as a genius?