Help needed - designing a charity poker tournament

[iillllii]

Hello all, I've been given the responsibility to design a charity poker tournament for my company, and would appreciate insight into what would be the best structure. My experience is mostly limited to 1 table Freeze- outs so this is a bit of a challenge.

Here are details:

-must kicks off after work, so about 6PM at the earliest

-takes place on a thurs. evening

-should end at a decent hour for working folk to get some sleep for the next day (end time of 10pm or so?)

-involves rebuys and add-ons (raises more money)

-initial buy in will be $20 or thereabouts. (players are typically mid to late 20's, $45K - $60K salaries, not serious poker players or gamblers)

-all money goes to charity although top winners will be awarded prizes (free round of golf, rafting trip, etc)

-Would expect to have about 30-40 players, but really, attendance is hard to predict...could be as low as about 20.. so we'll probably need to have multiple structures available depending on attendance?


This seems like a difficult tourney to organize, as re-buys and add ons usually make for a long tourney, but we only have about 4 hours at most.

Any advice on exactly how to structure the starting # of chips, blind schedule, re-buy period, add-on chip and dollar amount, etc?

Here is what I was kicking around:

Buy in $20, re-buys $20, add-on $10. 1000 chips.

blinds increase every 15 minutes

6:00 posted start time, expect to actually kick off at 6:30

blind structure:

round 1 15/30
round 2 15/30
round 3 20/40
round 4 40/80
round 5 50/100

<we are now 1:15 hour in. pause, cutoff rebuys, Add-ons of 500(?) offered for $10 (?)>

round 6 75/150
round 7 100/200
rount 8 150/300
round 9 200/400
round 10 300/600
round 11 400/800
round 12 500/1000
round 13 750/1500
round 14 1000/2000
round 15 1250/2500
round 16 1500/3000
round 17 3000/6000
round 18 5000/10,000

my thinking here is as follows:

round 1-3: The blinds start out high but flat to encourage both early action (get people out and re-buying) and to reward skillful play.

round 4-5: start the increase to get more action going, but don't cause any nose bleeds. We have a full 15 minutes of 50/100, which is 10% of the starting stack, and should get a lot of all-ins here with the rebuy period ending soon.

The add-on is significant in relation to starting stack (50%), which raises more money, but doesn't allow for too big of stacks (5 big blinds).

rounds 6-12: Blinds get big, but not too fast...should get a lot of knock outs but decent stacks shouldn't have to be desperate yet. the money raising portion of the tourney is over so now the focus is on getting the thing to end at a decent hour while still letting some solid poker happen. by the time round 12 ends, we are 3 hours in.

round 12-18: Time to end this thing. By the end of round 16, we are 4 hours in, and people are thinking about work the next day.


My biggest issues:
-is my set up for rounds 1-5 reasonable?

-Should I hold the blinds constant for longer than 15 minutes right after the add-on to make the add-on be valuable

-should I steepen the increases in rounds 6-12? This is the meat of the tourney so I didn't want to make it an all-in fest quite yet, but then again, it is hard to predict how big the big-stacks will be and it might just slow the whole thing down?

-Is the end (rounds 12+) too aggressive? My concern is that people will be hesitant to play at all if it means staying up until midnight on a worknight (we expect to play on a Thurs. evening), but then again, this thing carries some decent bragging rights and some desireable prizes, so I don't want to make it a complete circus.

More issues I'm pretty lost with:

-How many chips and dollars should the add-on be for?

-Is there any way to fairly allow non-busted players to buy a re-buy? If their stack is less than X big blinds headed into the break, they can do a full re-buy at $20? Allowing short stacks to re-buy would add more money so it seems worth doing, but then again, maybe this is why add-ons exist so allowing the re-buy would just be overkill?

Any advice would be appreciated, and may even benefit charity.

[StevieG]

Since you expect a lot of inexperience players, I would suggest offering "training classes" at lunch for a few days up to the event, maybe even a week. Have a sign-up and teach 8 or 9 (maybe even 10) each session. Possibly, you can even do them as a quick $2 sit-n-go with a nominal prize that earns a little more for your charity.

This will eliminate the need for tutoring in thr tournament (when you are very busy), as well as introduce the concept and maybe hook some who would jump into the tournament for money directly.

None of the buy-ins go to a prize pool, these are recreational players at best, and you are worried about how long it will go after work. Forget add-ons and rebuys, I think. If you want to make sure your charity gets a higher take, increase the buy-in.

You have plenty of increase in the levels you can expect this to wrap in maybe 5 hours or so. The levels are short at 15 minutes.

[DavidNB]

Too many blinds for new/average players. These guys aren't interested to come in and wait for hands like we do, they want action, they want to push.
I would change blinds to something like this
with 1000 starting chips
offer one rebuy (T1000)if you lose all your chips
20 minute blinds
round 1 10/20
round 2 20/40
round 3 30/60
rebuy ends
round 4 50/100
round 5 75/150
round 6 100/200
round 7 150/300
rount 8 200/400
round 9 300/600
round 10 500/1000
round 11 750/1500


Be prepareed to alter the blinds if required epending on how many show up and rebuy.

[iillllii]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you expect a lot of inexperience players, I would suggest offering "training classes" at lunch for a few days up to the event, maybe even a week. Have a sign-up and teach 8 or 9 (maybe even 10) each session. Possibly, you can even do them as a quick $2 sit-n-go with a nominal prize that earns a little more for your charity.

This will eliminate the need for tutoring in thr tournament (when you are very busy), as well as introduce the concept and maybe hook some who would jump into the tournament for money directly.

None of the buy-ins go to a prize pool, these are recreational players at best, and you are worried about how long it will go after work. Forget add-ons and rebuys, I think. If you want to make sure your charity gets a higher take, increase the buy-in.

You have plenty of increase in the levels you can expect this to wrap in maybe 5 hours or so. The levels are short at 15 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the feedback, hopefully it won't be the only reply.

I think having a higher buy-in with no rebuy/add-on would be much easier to manage, but would limit the money we would raise...This is a deal where the company is going to provide booz/bartender and order up pizza and what not, so the idea is to get a lot of people together to get buzzed up and fed and donk around with $20 in a tourney...they can go all in like they see on TV, and discuss which of Chris Moneymaker or Jamie Gold is the best NLHE player in the world. Then, they're having a good time and get busted, so what the hell, another $20 isn't a big deal.

As opposed to 'damn, a $40-50 buy in, I could have a whole bar hopping night on the town for that price, F that'.

But at any rate, this tournament is an annual event, which has has always had re-buys (not sure about add-ons, I always just assume they go together), and people seem to like that aspect. I just don't think the whole event has always been optimally run/planned in the past - it sounds like it was one of those deals where blind levels and timing would be made up as they went along.


As far as the training sessions, not a bad idea, but wouldn't work with our particular firm. At a given time, 90% of people are in the field (all over the city and state) at clients. But people generally know how to play, they just might not know to fold an inside straight draw to a pot sized bet, or to lay down middle pair to a re-raise.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
hopefully it won't be the only reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

SOOO impatient...

[ QUOTE ]
But at any rate, this tournament is an annual event, which has has always had re-buys (not sure about add-ons, I always just assume they go together), and people seem to like that aspect. I just don't think the whole event has always been optimally run/planned in the past - it sounds like it was one of those deals where blind levels and timing would be made up as they went along.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, this is the first time you've been involved, or just the first time you've organized it?

Do you have any data on rebuys and blinds in the past? I haven't been in that many rebuy tourneys, but I'd assume 20-40% more chips in rebuys?

Estimate the total chips that will be in play, then set two benchmarks:

Final table (8-10?) and make the BB about 10% of the average stack
3-way and HU: estimate average stack, set the BB to 5% of the total chips in play. See how much play that will give, adjust accordingly (but be prepared for extended time if you tweak too much)

Work your way backwards, with 3-handed blinds set for your last round, to the rebuy period and down to Round 1

It won't make for a great amount of play, but time end is more important than that.


[ QUOTE ]
-should end at a decent hour for working folk to get some sleep for the next day (end time of 10pm or so?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Make it 10:45-11? How far will people travel? Who's cleaning up, and how many helpers? Based on your other comments, maybe 6:30-10:30, with an announced start seating time of 6 p.m.
NO one gets blinded off without being there. If they buy in late (after the tourney starts), knock down their starting stack instead:

- 5% Round 1
- 15% Round 2
- 35% Round 3
- 60% Round 4

You can have a policy of "in late with short stack? Buy back up to your full starting stack.... for an extra $5-10"

This becomes less important to enforce if you as TD are NOT playing. Late players are a distraction if you are playing and getting blinded off.

Who are the dealers- players, or independent? 2 decks per table if players deal. No one shuffles and deals own deck- someone else shuffles.

Buy extra two decks for final table, to sub in. Crack them open as table is forming up.

[ QUOTE ]
-Would expect to have about 30-40 players, but really, attendance is hard to predict...could be as low as about 20.. so we'll probably need to have multiple structures available depending on attendance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Multiple structures (one for 22, one for 35) would be good. Use whichever is closest to the numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
Buy in $20, re-buys $20, add-on $10. 1000 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to encourage rebuys? Then sell chips at a discount. $15 or $10 for 1000, or $20 for 1500 or more chips (Pick one or the other). Take this into account with total chips, for structure setup/end.

Another fund-raiser- allow add-on before the cards are dealt. Change the buy-in to $15, which means people will probably spend $30 to start the tourney.

The more rebuys, the more brutal the blinds will have to jump.

Don't draw for seats when consolidating tables, until the final table. Moving a player- check for the open seat closest to the right of the button at the short table, grab the same seat # from the must-move table.

When are you scheduling a break? Over four hours, you might want 2, especially with the company provided munchies.


Structure- what kinds of chips do you have- $5 reds through $500 purples? Greater denoms? You'll need some higher denoms to color up for final table, so plan for that.

round 1- 50 BB (50x the big blind). Lower increases rebuys, but may feel like a push-fest early if you go TOO low.
round 2- 25 BB
round 3- 15 BB
Round 4- (before rebuy/add on ends) 10-12 BB

... and go from there. This is with the idea of encouraging rebuys.

Adjusting your earlier structure:
[ QUOTE ]

round 7 100/200
round 9 200/400
round 10 300/600
round 12 500/1000
round 13 700/1400
round 14 1000/2000
round 16 1500/3000
round 17 2000/4000
Round x 3000/6000
round 18 5000/10,000

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have problems at the end, just double the blinds in the next round and/or shorten the rounds, arbitrarily, to end it.

Given T1000 for $20 to start, 30% rebuys at $15 for T1000, 50% add-ons at $15 for T1500 and 30 players, you should have about 67K in play.

So, final table blinds (9 players? 8?) should be around T400/800 and heads up blinds will be T1500/3k. You can decide how long you want that final table period to last, by controlling the blinds progression.


Given your $50 bar comment, maybe $10 buy-in and $5 pregame add-on of 1k = T2k to start, with T25/50 blinds in Round 1.
$15 rebuys T2500 and $10 add-on, at end of rebuy period, for T2500.

30 players, 70% double buy-ins to start.... 30% rebuy.... 60% add-on = 110k in chips, final table blinds of T600/1200 and final round blinds of 3k/6k

[ QUOTE ]
round 1-3: The blinds start out high but flat to encourage both early action (get people out and re-buying) and to reward skillful play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Early rounds are not where skillful play can usually come in, when you're trying to encourage rebuys.

[ QUOTE ]
The add-on is significant in relation to starting stack (50%), which raises more money, but doesn't allow for too big of stacks (5 big blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless they already have 15BB stacks, you're in push-fest territory.


[ QUOTE ]
-Is the end (rounds 12+) too aggressive? My concern is that people will be hesitant to play at all if it means staying up until midnight on a worknight (we expect to play on a Thurs. evening), but then again, this thing carries some decent bragging rights and some desireable prizes, so I don't want to make it a complete circus.

[/ QUOTE ]

With large numbers of players, price limitations and time factor limits, your rebuys will force you to make this a bit of a circus. But, maybe people with more experience running fast rebuy tourneys will have something better...



[ QUOTE ]
maybe this is why add-ons exist so allowing the re-buy would just be overkill?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is your ticket. You can change it to allow double add-ons to anyone, or limit a double add-on to those who didn't have to rebuy, or allow a rebuy if under T500 in chips (and then an add-on)..... think of the implications and see what makes sense.

[PantsOnFire]

Here is my suggestion:

You may have to adjust the actual dollar amounts so consider my suggestions as relative.

Start: Either $10 for 500 chips or $20 for 1000 chips.
Re-buys (unlimited to first break): Same option as start when you go bust.
Add-on: Either $10 for 1000 chips or $20 for 2000 chips

Blind structure:

round 1 5/10
round 2 10/20
round 3 30/60
round 4 40/80
round 5 50/100

Break (end of rebuy, add-on now, chip up 5s now)

round 6 75/150
round 7 100/200
rount 8 150/300
round 9 200/400
round 10 300/600

Break

round 11 400/800
round 12 500/1000
round 13 750/1500
round 14 1000/2000
round 15 1500/3000
round 16 3000/6000
round 17 5000/10000

I would use 15 minute levels for 1-5. At that point, you can figure the number of chips in play. Then you can go to 10 minute levels for 6-10. After that break, you are in for about 2.5 hours.

I would estimate that for 30 (generous) players, there would be around 90,000 chips in play. So you might want to have several versions of blinds for the last stage of play if you want to come really close to predicted end time.

Sounds like you'll need a good whack of chips. Good luck.


Note: This is assuming you have red chips. If you start with greens as your lowest chip I would adjust the buyin levels to 1000 (or even 1500) and start with blinds of 25/25.

Note 2: Perhaps you could organize an SnG for players who buts out early? You should have a free table and hopefully enough chips.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Break (end of rebuy, add-on now, chip up 5s now)

round 6 75/150
round 7 100/200
rount 8 150/300
round 9 200/400
round 10 300/600

Break
Then you can go to 10 minute levels for 6-10. After that break, you are in for about 2.5 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh- 10 minute rounds can lead to 4-5 hands being dealt, then blinds get bumped. With slow players, you could risk the blinds jumping twice before the BB circles around again.

On the other hand, your Note 2 was a good idea, if he can handle both tourneys.

[iillllii]

great stuff guys, I'll give it some in depth analysis tonight and come up with a revised approach based on these comments/suggestions.

[PantsOnFire]

Actually, I think my add-ons are perhaps too many chips. Maybe make it $10 for 750 chips and $20 for 1500 chips.