People who refuse to help themselves

[Soulman]

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I think you're missing some of what Chaos and others are getting at here. The point is not just to accumulate money for the sake of having more money, the point is to make smart choices with your money so that through your investments, your money works for you rather than vice versa - the point is to be able to work LESS.

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If this is the point, I certainly don't see it anywhere - how did you read that out of any of the posts? Besides, how many self-made wealthy people do you know of that just kick back after making it? That is really not the impression I've got of the entrepreneurial types at all - the drive and ambition they have is what makes them able to get to the top in the first place. Once they're there, they'll usually find a new mountain to climb.

[El Diablo]

turnip,

The posts in this thread have largely focused on wealth, but pretty much all the same points can apply to people about why they didn't ever try to have a gallery showing of their art or why they never performed their music at open mike night or why they didn't ever follow their passions in a variety of areas.

[AnActualGirl]

I meant that this is the point of the investments, not of their posts, and that the question we're getting at is: why would someone who knows and understands the benefits and risks involved not invest in attractive opportunities (where they agree that the benefits outweigh the risks) presented to them when this would lead to more financial freedom (not just why don't people wan't more money for the sake of money)?

And true, many sucessful people will continue to work long after they could have retired, but most do it because they love it. They still have that option to stop anytime they choose, so they're able to be doing exactly what they want to be doing.

[Anacardo]

AnAct,

We're right next to each other in an alphabetical listing of 2+2 posters. Wild.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant that this is the point of the investments, not of their posts, and that the question we're getting at is: why would someone who knows and understands the benefits and risks involved not invest in attractive opportunities (where they agree that the benefits outweigh the risks) presented to them when this would lead to more financial freedom (not just why don't people wan't more money for the sake of money)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah right, misunderstood you there. I think you'll see cases like you describe rather rarely, I was talking more about the entrepreneurial types who start from scratch and see opportunity where others don't etc. Also, a lot of people are correctly risk-averse. But yeah, I agree that fear and complacency is too widespread.


[ QUOTE ]
And true, many sucessful people will continue to work long after they could have retired, but most do it because they love it. They still have that option to stop anytime they choose, so they're able to be doing exactly what they want to be doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that freedom probably is a motivation for a lot of people to gain riches - but at the same time, I think there are a lot of other factors at work here. Like power, status, personality types and so forth. In short, I don't think a lot of the go-getter types use their freedom to work less, and I don't believe they lead happier lives than others. That being said, they would probably be dislike doing classic 9-5 work, just like I would hate to be the I-need-to-network, have-to-sell etc kind of type.

I do think people like Tien (nothing personal, I don't know you at all) tend to espouse their views as the correct one though, while in reality different criteria will lead to happiness, depending on the person in question.

[HP]

I like your post Tien, as long as you leave all your terms general enough so people can slot in whatever their goals in life are

[Tien]

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On the other hand, I have numerous objections. For one thing, what do you define as 'achievement?'

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I have my own definition towards what personal success is. I wrote down my mission statement in life down and have it printed in front of me on the wall:

"My mission is to build an enormous empire of wealth and happiness. I will help as many people as I possibly can as well as achieve the most I can possibly achieve."

What that said. I do not start up my own companies for the money. I do what I do because it pushes my limits and capabilities to the edge. Starting a business, growing it, sustaining it, systemizing it, turning it into an entreprise requires a tremendous amount of work and energy as well as it requires me to constantly become a BETTER person than I am today. There are many skills I have yet to learn, much knowledge I have yet to acquire, and many incredible people I have yet to meet. To me it's fun. I am having a ball everyday. I wake up happy and go to bed happy everyday because I am out there doing what I want to do. I am piece by piece putting the puzzle together to fit the picture which is my mission statement.

[ QUOTE ]

What you write sounds like an uncomplicated approval of the modern cult of power, money, wealth, fame, success, etc. for their own sakes, and I can't help but eye that critically. There's more to life than self-interest, even enlightened, reciprocal self-interest.

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I do not approve of the modern cult of power, money, wealth, fame, success either. To me those words are merely tools used to achieve my mission statement.

I believe in developing other people's businesses and adding FREE value to their lives so that they can flourish, succeed, and be happy as well. I want to bring as many people into my world as possible. I am not saying what I do is the end all, be all of what everyone should do. I just want to help people achieve their own mission statements.

The more I genuinely help people, the more I seem to receive in the long run.

I have helped revolutionized a few of the business partners I have met. I have helped them step up their businesses as well as their mentality to a new level, in return, they reciprocate and help me revolutionize / change my own business and mentality.

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What do you define as 'holding you back?' If your sick mother is a real drag on your lifestyle, do you 'cut the line' with her? Should we dump all our 100 NL friends as a matter of course simply because they're not moving in the baller circles we want to be in? Very few personal relationships are cut-and-dried; a lot of people add value in some ways while taxing our resources in others.

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I stick with my principles. I don't go against them. If I have an ailing mother it is against my principles to cut her off. It is not against my principles to cut off an old friend that does nothing but critique every single piece of my business, especially when he HAS NO BUSINESS OF HIS OWN and just trades his blood and sweat for a couple of dollars.

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And the idea of sucking up to our social superiors just to get a piece of their action, which is kinda how this reads, seems very cynical and self-degrading.

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I don't suck up to any of my social superiors. I deal with people that want to deal with me and the ones that don't want to deal with me are cut off.

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In addition, you sound like a man with a very low tolerance level for criticism. I'm certainly no different in that respect, but I wonder if this is entirely a good thing. Some "flaws," particularly in high-risk schemes, really are flaws.

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There is a difference between criticism backed with experience vs criticism backed by inexperience. I respond completely different to both kinds of criticism.


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I've come to believe, arationally, that there's a certain intrinsic power to decisiveness / confidence / audacity, but, on the other hand, arrogance, hubris and shortsightedness are punished all the time.

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I agree.

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Above all you need to define 'achievement' more precisely. Do you provide a place within your notion of success for things that can't be expressed in dollars or glory? What about spiritual achievement?

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Pushing myself to the utmost limits requires me to constantly change and improve who I am. The Tien 6 months ago cannot solve the problems that the Tien today is faced against. The Tien 6 months ago is emotionally / mentally / spiritually weaker than the Tien today. That is the only way I can improve not only my business, but my own self and personal relationships.

[Tien]

One more point to add.

Just because someone is not a successful business person / rich ass millionaire doesn't mean I cut them off and don't bother talking to them.

I keep a lot of relationships that have nothing to do with business because they still continue to add value to my life.

[Chaostracize]

I think this thread has gotten a bit side-tracked here, although that's not to say that's a bad thing.

I do have a few comments, however.

To those who are saying that they feel there is something immorally wrong with what Tien is saying about cutting those off that add no value to your life, I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. If you have a friend who you can talk to and get [censored] off your chest, well, that friend has value. Heck, that friend has a ton of value. Just because this friend isn't making you money, isn't connecting you to people with power, isn't being otherwise helpful when it comes to whatever new money making scheme you've discovered, well, that friend still has value if you enjoy his company. That (I believe) is what Tien is talking about. However, I also know multitudes of people who just bring you down with their negativity, and while they can be fun drinking buddies, you get literally nothing out of the friendship. To say it's wrong (or whatever word you want to use, "wrong" is the best I could come up with) to cut these people out of your life makes no sense.

My best friend who just finished graduate school is becoming a teacher. He is going into physical education and he is prepared for this to be his job for the rest of his life. I just realized I have two anecdotes. The first is that when we were talking about what he's going to do and how he would like to eventually be athletic director I told him to make money first, open up his own private school, and make himself the athletic director there. I'm sure this sounds stupid to him and to others, but so many people think about moving from the inside out, when it makes so much more sense to move from the outside in. The second anecdote comes from me telling him to start thinking about investing now. I talk about my investment opportunity and all of a sudden something kind of snaps and he says "You know, Josh, I can't just make $25,000 appear for me to invest. That's basically just about what I'm going to be making in an entire year. What you are saying just doesn't apply to me."

So I tell him "Bryan. I don't expect you to invest $25,000. I don't expect you to be rich, ever. I know that's not what you see for yourself. But listen to me. If you save $2,000 for your first 5 years working, then you go ahead and bu yourself a duplex. You can do all the maintenance yourself, so that wouldn't be an extra long term cost. The side you rent out will pay for you mortgage, and now you're living without paying rent while building up equity in your house as well as your credit. Do this once every 5 years and after 20 years you'll have a few houses and have enough passive income equalling how much you make from being a physical education teacher. This won't make you rich, but it will allow you to do whatever the [censored] you want, and that's a pretty good feeling."

He looked at me and said "$2000? I can save more than that."

And that's all it is. People think so big so quick, that they get terrified and paralyzed. Like Diablo said for the person who wants to put on an art show or play with their band for a large crowd...you don't have to start big. But you have to start, and these are the people I'm talking about. The people who refuse to start.

Listen, if you love your job knitting, being a ski instructor, being a nurse, etc. etc. that's fine. Keep doing it. This post is geared towards people who DO have the aspirations, yet STILL do nothing. If you have no aspirations for building wealth and being able to do literally whatever you could possibly dream of doing, and you are happy with your current lifestyle, I'm not knocking that. I'm happy with my lifestyle now even though I can't afford crazy expensive cars/vacations/houses, but I also think about how cool it would be if I could do whatever I wanted, too. If you don't fit into this category, then you're arguing peas and we're arguing potatoes. We're not on the same level, so of course we aren't going to be able to see eye to eye.

But if you want to make that change and aren't doing it, then that's the issue I want to bring up, because it's one I see daily, and it's one that seems so easy to fix, yet it never is.

[Howard Treesong]

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You know whats funny; all this talk of the American dream, all of this talk about having a big house and taking cruises every 3 months.

Yet out of the successfulish guys I talk too, everyones to afraid to be rich. They settle for that 150k a year job. These are guys that worked their asses off to get there, with huge dreams, but once they hit this magical mark, they just give up.

Investing is similar, they just don't see the point of trying to get wealthy. They see only downsides; losing what they already own, failing and feeling bad, having to worry about the investment.

People just don't want to be as rich as they can be. I don't understand it, but I'm a natural poker player/day trader. All I think about is scalping as much bucks as I can. Money is points to me, and no amount could satisfy me. But I guess I haven't made it to that 'comfort' mark yet. That will be the true teller of how much drive I have.

Also, everyone who wants to be rich and is willing to put in the work almost always becomes as rich as they ever want to be (within reason). I never really understood this until recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

A year and a half ago, I quit a job and took a new one for about 1/3 the pay (brag: old job was between $1MM and $2MM/year). The new job permits me to be home for dinner five days a week, as opposed to maybe 2 days a week in the old spot (beat: in my old job, I once worked 63 consecutive days form 14+ hours a day). I ldo miss making more scratch, but I'm quite frankly happier now -- in part because I get to spend time with my kids, helping them grow up.

Your life is finite. Being the richest man in the graveyard is no goal at all.

That said, money is critically related to freedom and enjoyment of life -- so making IMO $5-10MM is important. But I don't know how my life would change from what it is now if I had another million in the bank; and so that part of it is far less important than it used to be.