A few questions for abolitionists

[Borodog]

tom,

YOUR PONY TOO AWESOME!

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
These are interesting responses but I have a few more points. I have spoken to a few slaves who say that their masters are good masters. If they want to be slaves can we deny them that? I think it's better to work within the current system than try to get rid of it all together. Sure slavery is flawed. I realize that one of those flaws is that people are forced to work for no pay but I heard of a group of slaves who managed to negotiate their beatings down from 10 a day to 1. That shows that working within the system can work.

Also if the slaves don't like the current system why don't we see more attempted runaways? Sure there are some but not as many as you'd expect if the system was all that bad. THere are some places where they don't practice slavery why don't all the slaves try harder to move there?

You see when a slave child is born he can't fend for himself, his master provides him with food and shelter and in return he agrees to work for life. This is an implicit social contract between slaves and their masters slaves are implicitly agreeing to be slaves by accepting the food and shelter offered by the masters.

Look forward to your further responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bit of a strawman.

Most common conceptions of slavery assume it an involuntary relationship -- people forced into bondage against their will; this is obvious, given the analogy you're trying to flesh out here -- "zomg slavery = statism!"

And yet your narrative redefines slavery as a voluntary relationship to make your analogy work -- see the bolded quotes -- because, of course, the parallels between real forced bondage and statism are tenuous at best, so you're forced to reconstruct slavery as having voluntary characteristics (which, as noted, are inherently contradicted by the very meaning of the word 'slavery'). Then, you use that vital redefinition to draw out an analogy to the relationship between state authority and citizens and slave and master (because boy, they sure do seem awfully similar, now that we've redefined slavery as voluntary).

Statists claim the relationship between state authority and citizen is voluntary, so you essentially ignore their argument by relying on drawing out an analogy to a relationship that is by definition involuntary. Hence the strawman.

Now, you can legitimately claim the relationship between the state and isn't voluntary, but you should argue that instead of engaging in this, since this more or less ignores the arguments of your opponents.

So yeah, while it's possible to get the conclusions you want by casually redefining words, I think it's a bit of a hollow victory. I'm not sure why some here lauded you for this thread, since the fallacy on display was rather transparent.

Lastly, I don't quite understand your point about runaways. Chattel slaves in ante-bellum America ran away frequently. Your point about run-a-ways sort of back-handedly refutes your own argument. African slaves held in bondage before the Civil War frequently fled their masters, leaving yourself open to the inevitable "if the state is treats you so brutally, why haven't you run away yet like they did, if the scenarios are analogous" type arguments.

tl;dr summary: Tom, your pony fallacious and self-refuting

[tomdemaine]

I'm not saying Zomg statism = slavery. This is really a response to the idea that anyone who wants rid of government intrusion in their lives has to become an expert on every possible conceivable little detail and how each interaction between people would work in a free society. A lot of these arguements were made by those who didn't want to see an end to slavery.

Stop taking my money from me against my will first and then we can start talking about how intellectual property is going to work and who owns a gold mine that two people start digging at the same time = Lets stop the barbaric practice of slavery first and then we can start working out how to integrate millions of ex slaves.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying Zomg statism = slavery. This is really a response to the idea that anyone who wants rid of government intrusion in their lives has to become an expert on every possible conceivable little detail and how each interaction between people would work in a free society. A lot of these arguements were made by those who didn't want to see an end to slavery.

Stop taking my money from me against my will first and then we can start talking about how intellectual property is going to work and who owns a gold mine that two people start digging at the same time = Lets stop the barbaric practice of slavery first and then we can start working out how to integrate millions of ex slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have become one of my favorite posters. This is top notch stuff.

[Dan.]

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I'm not saying Zomg statism = slavery. This is really a response to the idea that anyone who wants rid of government intrusion in their lives has to become an expert on every possible conceivable little detail and how each interaction between people would work in a free society. A lot of these arguements were made by those who didn't want to see an end to slavery.

Stop taking my money from me against my will first and then we can start talking about how intellectual property is going to work and who owns a gold mine that two people start digging at the same time = Lets stop the barbaric practice of slavery first and then we can start working out how to integrate millions of ex slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let's talk seriously then. How are we getting rid of the government? I want it gone. You want it gone. Albeit to different ends than I, but let's just do it. Strategy. Go.

I really am curious. Now that I've decided I desire anarchy, how do we pull this off? I'm a bit lost...violent overthrow seems like the only solution, but has a very low success probability.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying Zomg statism = slavery. This is really a response to the idea that anyone who wants rid of government intrusion in their lives has to become an expert on every possible conceivable little detail and how each interaction between people would work in a free society. A lot of these arguements were made by those who didn't want to see an end to slavery.

Stop taking my money from me against my will first and then we can start talking about how intellectual property is going to work and who owns a gold mine that two people start digging at the same time = Lets stop the barbaric practice of slavery first and then we can start working out how to integrate millions of ex slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let's talk seriously then. How are we getting rid of the government? I want it gone. You want it gone. Albeit to different ends than I, but let's just do it. Strategy. Go.

I really am curious. Now that I've decided I desire anarchy, how do we pull this off? I'm a bit lost...violent overthrow seems like the only solution, but has a very low success probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[nietzreznor]

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I'm a bit lost...violent overthrow seems like the only solution, but has a very low success probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, violent revolution seems like the worst method. Education and nonviolent resistance (civil disobedience) seem far superior IMO.

[ShakeZula06]

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I really am curious. Now that I've decided I desire anarchy, how do we pull this off? I'm a bit lost...violent overthrow seems like the only solution, but has a very low success probability.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's some

[tomdemaine]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying Zomg statism = slavery. This is really a response to the idea that anyone who wants rid of government intrusion in their lives has to become an expert on every possible conceivable little detail and how each interaction between people would work in a free society. A lot of these arguements were made by those who didn't want to see an end to slavery.

Stop taking my money from me against my will first and then we can start talking about how intellectual property is going to work and who owns a gold mine that two people start digging at the same time = Lets stop the barbaric practice of slavery first and then we can start working out how to integrate millions of ex slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let's talk seriously then. How are we getting rid of the government? I want it gone. You want it gone. Albeit to different ends than I, but let's just do it. Strategy. Go.

I really am curious. Now that I've decided I desire anarchy, how do we pull this off? I'm a bit lost...violent overthrow seems like the only solution, but has a very low success probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Borodog wins PVN round, they work to win me round we work to win you round pay it forward 2 by 2 seems to be the only way. Luckily we've got the internet which makes thing about 1000 times easier than they otherwise would be.

[Dan.]

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Borodog wins PVN round, they work to win me round we work to win you round pay it forward 2 by 2 seems to be the only way. Luckily we've got the internet which makes thing about 1000 times easier than they otherwise would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Sorry to ruin the party, but I'm not an anarchocapitalist. Something closer to a libertarian socialist or an anarchosyndicalist. But not really that either. Something in between.

And I was only half serious about the violent overthrow. I fully support education and nonviolent resistance; I'm just eager for some real change in my lifetime.