25NL More fun with KK

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I dont think shoving preflop is good because QQ and lower wont call

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pretty sure QQ is beating you into the pot

[Flups]

Ok, I see the logic of 4-betting instead of shoving pre to keep in the weaker hands (allthough I wouldn't understand why anyone would call a big 4-bet (note to waffles: FOUR-bet) with TT-QQ or AK for a third of his stack and not a shove, but that might be just me(?))

But then on the flop: if you have him on a range of QQ+ and AK, why shove? Isn't he only calling with hands out of that range that have you crushed (or tied)? Why not try to induce a bluff then from AK? I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling (that's a word right?). If an A falls on turn after checking then you would want to smash your head against the wall... But it seems that after 4-betting with KK the cards you don't want to see on the flop are an A or a Q (admitted a TJQ flop would be the most ugly flop possible). I think you really have to be up against one of the micro donkeys to be able to put AQ in villians range. And I think half a competent player folds TT and JJ as well, but maybe I'm too much of a nit and compare too much to what I would do facing a big 4-bet...

Against an unknown or donkish player I would push the flop and wouldn't feel to bad to pay of the better hand. But against a competent regular/nittish player, I don't think I'm ahead of anything if it goes in (and I don't know if it would, probably though).

[ElectricWaffles]

4-bet, got it. I'm always getting that wrong...

As for working out what an 'average' NL25 player will call/raise with preflop I'm only coming from my experiance at NL10 and NL5, so your assesment is probably more accurate. At NL10 or NL5 I'd say AQ even AJ could well be in BB's range, as often I find people wont often fold to a *4* bet after they've reraised preflop unless you push AI.

[Galwegian]

This is pretty standard. Once he calls your 4-bet preflop, the money is all going in no matter what you both have or what the flop brings.

From the sound of things, you don't have a particularly big bankroll for NL25. If this is the case, then perhaps shoving preflop is better as I guess that it is lower variance than the line you took (not much difference in ev I would say).