Mid-Stage MTT (sorry if there's a post about this before)

[Mido Ps]

Hi guys, this is my first post, and I'm relly hoping I'll get a response on this....

Ok here it is,
Early rounds after the first break (when the blinds are 50/100 at bodog), say I have $2700ish in chips, so my M is just bellow 20. What I've read, I should play more hands, than i'd play when my M is above 20, shift-up the gears to agresive style (which will open with any ace, any two face cards, any pairs, and any suited connectors down to 43o). BUT I've lost the ability to play small pairs and suited connectors.

NOW HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT?

And in his book, Harrington also wrote that agresive style doesnt care much about position. This is confused me the most. Say you have $2900 in chips when the blinds are 50/100, UTG folds, your on 2nd post with A6o, you raised makin it 300 to go, and some one behind you with $1200 move all in, you have to fold. And left you with $2600 in chips, several hands later you do the same thing with KTo also out of position, and the other small stack thinks "I've seen this before, maybe I can make him fold too!". Now you are wounded, the blinds are up to 75/150 and you had to sit back waiting for a premium hands... (not to mention someone behind you are trapping with A's, because he knows what you are doing!)

Maybe, some one can give me their hand requirement when they are playin in the yellow and orange zone.... It'll be such a big help for me.. hehe...

Oh yeah, I got a tendency, when I'm drop to the orange zone, i'd let my self drift down to the red zone while waiting for premium, because I think, if i raise when my M's about 7, my raise will chopping about half of my chip stack, if I got 3 callers, than its a disaster! I dont have more chips to back me up to give some one the wrong odds to see the turn. And if some one put me all in??? I wont go for all of my chips with KTo kinda hand!!!

And in the red zone, that's when the confusion mounting!
Harrington wrote that T6o is a strong enough hand to push. I dont like that idea... Even when I have the first in vigorish.

Until now, when I'm in the red-zone (which almost every time), I'm pushing with any suited ace, AT or better, any two face card JT+, any pair and any suited connectors but just down to 98s. I also need help for hand requirement for pushing in the red zone but not yet in the money....

One more thing, when the blinds are 150/300 with $25 antes each at a full 9 handed table, say you have $2250 in chips. If there's no antes you are not desperate to push with wide range of hands. Because the initial pot is $450 and your M is still 5 and you have 7.5BB. But with antes, makes the initial pot is $657, you still have a 7.5BB (even it's shrinking after each hands because the antes), but you well landed on the M of 3! Will you making the same move (pushing with wide variety hands)?

Harrington never explains the details on that area (hands to push), so I really hope I'll get my answers here..

Thanks In Advance Guys....

[Pondy]

I can give you a couple of pointers:-

Harrington wrote that if your M is below 20 (above 10) you need to be aggresive with high cards and high pairs. If you feel you need to play A6o ( I personally wouldnt, I'd wait until the button,CO etc and go for lots of stealing etc )from UTG+1 then 3xBB raise is not enough. Either limp (bad) or stick a bigger raise in. Folding is best though.

The Red Zone - because the blinds are about to turn you into a sitting duck, and you're first in you need to push as low as 10 6o. Unless someone has a pocket pair, you'll mostly pick up the antes and blinds which is what you're trying to achieve in this zone, in order to keep treading water until you get a hand that you can double up on.

Hope this helps

[bookish]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok here it is,
Early rounds after the first break (when the blinds are 50/100 at bodog), say I have $2700ish in chips, so my M is just bellow 20. What I've read, I should play more hands, than i'd play when my M is above 20, shift-up the gears to agresive style (which will open with any ace, any two face cards, any pairs, and any suited connectors down to 43o). BUT I've lost the ability to play small pairs and suited connectors.


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Thats right. The reason is with these hands you are either going to have a poor hand (say 66 on an AJ4 flop) or a monster (say 66 on an AK6 flop). Most of the time you are going to lose money, but occasionally you'll win big. The problem is, if you haven't got a big stack you won't win enough to make up for all the times you lose.

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And in his book, Harrington also wrote that agresive style doesnt care much about position. This is confused me the most.


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This is mostly about open-pushing with low cards. Position doesn't matter so much as there won't be any post-flop play where position is important. You want to consider the number of players still to act when you raise though.

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Say you have $2900 in chips when the blinds are 50/100, UTG folds, your on 2nd post with A6o, you raised makin it 300 to go, and some one behind you with $1200 move all in, you have to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is the position part of it. If you raise with trash (and A6 is here) then you should be doing it from later position because there are fewer player who need to fold for you to pick up the blinds.

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And left you with $2600 in chips, several hands later you do the same thing with KTo also out of position, and the other small stack thinks "I've seen this before, maybe I can make him fold too!".


[/ QUOTE ]
If you think the small stack is trying it on, you can call here (and K10 isn't too bad because it plays against 99-66 much better than A6). Again though this comes down to the fact that you need to be raising with better hands from early position.

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Now you are wounded, the blinds are up to 75/150 and you had to sit back waiting for a premium hands... (not to mention someone behind you are trapping with A's, because he knows what you are doing!)


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You don't want to be sitting back too much here. You need to steal a few blinds to get back to where you were. Bear in mind your table image, and if you have <10BB, just push.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe, some one can give me their hand requirement when they are playin in the yellow and orange zone.... It'll be such a big help for me.. hehe...


[/ QUOTE ]

So many factors ...

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And in the red zone, that's when the confusion mounting!
Harrington wrote that T6o is a strong enough hand to push. I dont like that idea... Even when I have the first in vigorish.


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The alternative is to be blinded away. You need to push with any 1/2 decent cards to pick the blinds up. There's no point just waiting for AA/KK/QQ only to see everyone fold when you do get them. What then?

[Secret Squirrel]

You are right you should be playing more hands as your M gets lower but the right sort of hands- and position is important. But you are still playing WAY to tight in the Red zone.

You seem confused about what Harrington says about aggressive style and how this differs from how to play agressively later in the tournament. These are two different things. The first is the way a lot of people play (LAG) by seeing a lot of flops and raising with weak hands they are difficult to play against as unsure of their holdings- they play this wy from the start of the tourny. The second is that as you progress through the tourny your hand requirements become lower as you need to take a chance to double up or at least steal before you are blinded out. Very Different concepts.

Some more specific advice:

Don't be guilty of limping in too much- you should be pushing or folding most of the time when you have less than 10 big blinds.

Stop playing small pairs and SCs for value as you will no longer have the odds to hit your hand. eg. blinds are 100/200 and you have 1300 chips. If you limp in you are not getting the right odds. However, these hands can be pushed from later position when you are short stacked.

Position is important at all times until it is imperative you make a move first. In the mid stages and onwards of a tournament my hands matter less than the frequency I have been stealing, how the tight the table is etc. However in early position still need good hands to open.

I think most of your problems are stemming from raising/limping instead of pushing. You know you need to play agressive but are not prepared to risk losing. Remember you are trying to win and not just get in the money. Better to win on occaision than scrape into the money often.

Hope that helps- and get used to pushing 10 6o when you are in the red zone!!

[kinheim]

imo harington book i way to tigh for online play with 15 min blind levels.. consider player more hand when in good pos and try to find out wich players to pick on.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Mclane665]

I was frustrated with Harrington in the orange/yellow zones as he didnt really cover much of it in the hand examples. If you like reading books like I do try SS and making the final table by Erick Lindgren. It drilled into me that mid tourney play is about confidence and controlled aggression.

Dont play rubbish like A6 until late position and really you just want the blinds. Try and see a few flops with K10 suited type hands lower pairs and suited connectors. If you hit a flush/straight draw bet it strong even all in. It gives you 2 ways of winning a sizeable pot. Either they fold or they call and you hit. I like suited connectors for this very reason as they open up alot more hand you can get aggressive with after the flop.

If you raise with A6 what are you hoping for? an A leaves you playing scared and defensive because your kicker is weak and the 6 will not be a pair you want to get aggressive with either. Start keeping a track of bet sizes and put opponents to a decision for all their chips but do this when you have a good hand or a good draw to a monster. If Im open ended or have a flush draw and someone bets into me an all in is always on my mind. Look for fold equity and weak feeler bets to attack. You really need to get a big stack if possible in the middle tournament to get pressure on. I always hated going out of a tournament on a draw but now I see how much easier poker is with a big stack late on I am willing to take certain risks earlier on to get more chips in my pile.

Poker really is about playing to win. I played live on saturday and for the first time I was aggressive throughout. I had to fight every urge to grind it out and wait for big cards. After 2 hours the best hand I had seen was 99 and AJs but I had trebbled up by getting creative and aggressive with draws. Then at the semi final table I waited for a couple of short stacks to either bust out or double up (giving them something to loose again) and then I went on the attack. There was a weak/tight player three to my left who was thinking of one thing only, The fnal table. This was my guy I kept attacking him and attacking him and taking blind after blind.

The reason I am telling you this example is simple. It was the first time I played after reading Erick's book and the first time I truly enjoyed playing poker Live. No nerves no waiting for great cards just playing good observant poker and cleaning up. I got to the final table just a little short of the chip leader rather than all my previous final tables where I have been short stack or their abouts.

I then went on to 2nd place because I kept up the aggression when most other were nursing there short stacks waiting for the money.

I hope this helps in some way.

Greg

[Mido Ps]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] whoaaaa....
i'm excited. . . .
ty guys...
more...
more... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[omaha]

Welcome stranger!

Very good questions, and i used to agree with all of your answers.

This was quite a while ago. I used to be a passive little girlie girlie girl, waited for good hands, laughing at the idiotic maniacs on the table who would bust out.

I was always trying to outlast the next person. WOw, ive moved up a spot! ARnt i smart? Idiot who went all in and busted! good, Ill wait for the next one and take his spot too! Yipppeeeeee! Im up again, yay!

Of course, i made it itm (in the money) more than i would have otherwise.

But, lets say we are in a $4/180 on stars, a very happy hunting ground for me.

If we move from 19th (paying nothing) to tenth, we have earnt $8.64 extra.

If we move from 15th to 8th, we earn about another10 dollars, or about two and a half buy ins.

The difference between third and first? $140, or about THIRTY FIVE buyins.

The real money is coming top 6 or seven the rest barely count.

My current theory is this (and its working quite well) WHoever is the best blind thief, the best pusher, and the best isolator will happily climb the ladder, until they bust out.

If someone gets a run of cards, they move up.

ANd the passive players, who play like I used to , and you currently do?

They get ground up, churned out, spat on, trampled on while their wallets are removed.

Listen up and learn, you may not like it, but these few hints will save you a HEAP of heartache.

i) You have five blinds (or less) left. You have 10 6 offsuit or better. NO one has entered the pot (ie no callers or raisers) in front of you. Regardless of your position, YOU SHOVE, END OF STORY.

ii) You have less than 12 blinds left. Your decision is easy, you either SHOVE it all in, or you FOLD. Nothing in between. A standard raise and a cbet commmits you and cripples you if you lose. Better to shove it all in pf, put the players yet to act under immense pressure,and put their tourney on the line.

iii) You have >15 bbs. You can raise 3bb, cbet 4bbs, and fold if you are beat.

iv) WHen you have a playable stack, I always bring everything in for a raise, and cbet, this can often win me the tourney, even when i am card dead.

v) check out the stacks behind you. If you have 40bbs, and you are in the button, the sb has 5bb, and the bb has 4bb, what do you do with 10 6 offsuit? (if you said call, or minraise, or raise 3bb, please smash your head against a brick wall, and read i) repeatedly, and think about your effective chip stack.

vi) learn to isolate. Say a short stack goes all in for 2.5bbs. You have 20bbs, and have 7 7. What do you do? Call, and get some callers, who will check fold the flop if you hit a set? NO NO NON NO NO NO. You raise it up 5bbs, trying to get rid of everyone else. THe all in prolly has nothing, and your 7 7 will be a favourite. There is a whole heap of dead money, even if he has qjs, so you get paid over the odds.

Stop worrying about busting out early! Play as I have shown above, and I guarantee you you will bust out earlier, and often.

So why play like this? Because your chip stack basically keeps increasing and staying ahead of the blinds. You can get deep and win them, and get $214 instead of the pathetic $8.64 for ten spots lower.