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#31
08-22-2007, 07:38 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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[ QUOTE ] I haven't read the book; but I'm sure there must be something there about c-betting at low blind levels. What are the min requirements for c-betting at levels 1/2? I think this links in neatly with the work done here so far on loosening up early. I used to have a rigid rule of not c-betting whiffed flops, now I am happy to bet into certain villains, or on certain flops. Eg Villain is tight reg multitabler with position(ie I raise 3BB from MP, he called from LP), we are HU. Flop comes A high, I hold 99. I am prepared to bet 5BB into that flop. [/ QUOTE ] What I first learnt about SNG's was from Sprstoner's blog. A high stakes pro who has since moved to cash/tournies. He followed this rule and as such so did I , I now C-bet AK type hands in position about 1/2 the time. Below is a typical example of an overbet c-bet that I use pretty frequently too. 5-Handed 50/100 Ryot (13-1400): AK opens to 300 Folds Co (2000): Calls Folds Flop 378r Ryot goes allin 1100 [/ QUOTE ] This is way too transparent IMO - especially if you do it a lot. In particular it makes calling the flop with fairly marginal hands very profitable when you can't see a hand that beats you which would want that much FE on the flop. If I c-bet, it's for the same amount as I would v-bet with top set on the board in question. In the example you give I'm not c-betting with that stack size - with that specific stack size, I'm usually open pushing preflop anyway - but if I'm just raising with a moderate stack, I'm not putting any more in without a hand. I usually want 12BB+ behind after my c-bet before I consider it. 
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#32
08-22-2007, 09:18 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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Thanks for the spreadsheet, Slim. I'd like some comments from those who've read the book, here, please. Most of the example hands in Part 1 illustrate what to experienced SnG players are probably standard plays, and Slim, I think it was you who termed Part 1 a manual for staying out of trouble. Hand 1-11 is an example where Collin didn't stay out of trouble, though. I've read the hand a number of times and I'm not sure I agree with Collin that the hand warrants a raise, even taking position and prior players' actions into account. I'd limp and set mine here. At this stage of the tourney, how big a mistake am I making? [/ QUOTE ] The book advocates limping with speculative hands like mid-low pp in mid-late to late position after there is already a couple of limpers. You don't have that situation here, so I think open-raising with a decent hand with a chance to take down the blinds or hit a set if you are called is not a bad move. Also, if you get it heads-up and the flop comes ragged, your 88 might still be good and depending on your opponent you may be able to take down the pot with a c-bet. Open-limping in middle-late position seems pretty weak IMHO. I'd be interested in what others think of this hand as well.
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#33
08-22-2007, 10:05 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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...if I'm just raising with a moderate stack, I'm not putting any more in without a hand. I usually want 12BB+ behind after my c-bet before I consider it. [/ QUOTE ] This is really helpful because I often find myself on a missed flop in position thinking i shoud cbet but knowing it will effectively commit my stack to that pot with nothing if called. Would others agree you need 12BB approx left to cbet a missed flop as a guide for beginners?
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#34
08-22-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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Open-limping in middle-late position seems pretty weak IMHO. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for your response. I know it does seem weak (and Collin agrees with you), but how satisfied are you with your situation as portrayed in the example. You have half your stack committed holding a mid pair on an ace-high board. By limping you encourage other callers which makes the set mine play viable. Collin's play either cripples you or wins you a quarter of your stack. Limping either costs you 60 chips or wins almost as much as Collin's play. Is this book written for new players? If yes, unless they're well-heeled or crazy they'll be playing in games where people routinely call raises with Ax. Is it really a smart play to bet pot on this turn? It seems to really contradict his "be conservative early" theme, unless he's sncouraging me to go to war with speculative hands...which I don't think is the case.
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#35
08-22-2007, 11:22 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Open-limping in middle-late position seems pretty weak IMHO. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for your response. I know it does seem weak (and Collin agrees with you), but how satisfied are you with your situation as portrayed in the example. You have half your stack committed holding a mid pair on an ace-high board. By limping you encourage other callers which makes the set mine play viable. Collin's play either cripples you or wins you a quarter of your stack. Limping either costs you 60 chips or wins almost as much as Collin's play. Is this book written for new players? If yes, unless they're well-heeled or crazy they'll be playing in games where people routinely call raises with Ax. Is it really a smart play to bet pot on this turn? It seems to really contradict his "be conservative early" theme, unless he's sncouraging me to go to war with speculative hands...which I don't think is the case. [/ QUOTE ] I definitely see your point and would most likely check behind on the turn if I were in that situation; not necessarily because it is the better play, but because I would probably fear the ace. On the other hand, I see Collin's point. Your opponent is passive and while he could be in with an A, he could also have high cards like KQ, or even a flush draw. You would hate to give a free card in this spot. If your opponent doesn't hold an A, he is probably folding here. If he does have an A, he will most likely raise. Given that your opponent is passive, and raise will definitely signal an A and you can safely fold. The blinds are still low and you will still have 1000 left. Honestly, knowing how I play I doubt I make this turn bet unless I had some kind of read that led me to believe my opponent would most likely fold as expending half your stack at this early stage does seem to conflict with the conservative early approach. Definitely hope to hear more opinions on this hand. fwiw I am not a biginner as I have been playing and studying poker/tournament poker/SNGs for a number of years. However, I am not an expert either as time only allows me to play a couple of tournaments a week, meaning while I've put in the YEARS, I haven't put in the HOURS many other players have, so I am just as interested in other's opinions on this as well.
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#36
08-22-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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Would others agree you need 12BB approx left to cbet a missed flop as a guide for beginners? [/ QUOTE ] No, I would not agree with this. I would not throw away EV by not c-betting in good c-betting spots because I've set an arbitrary rule not to c-bet below 12bbs.
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#37
08-22-2007, 01:23 PM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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[ QUOTE ] 5-Handed 50/100 Ryot (13-1400): AK opens to 300 Folds Co (2000): Calls Folds Flop 378r Ryot goes allin 1100 [/ QUOTE ] This seems unnecessary as you are either a 3:1 favorite or a 3:1 underdog, with nothing in between, and the flop texture makes that very transparent. Continuation bets are for flops where you can make the best hand fold. [/ QUOTE ] Slim is bang on. This is actually a pretty bad flop to c-bet, because no one is ever going to believe you hit it and they are really never folding a better hand. 22 might even look you up here. I would if I had 22. The only hands that are folding are hands that you beat.
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#38
08-22-2007, 08:59 PM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
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[ QUOTE ] Would others agree you need 12BB approx left to cbet a missed flop as a guide for beginners? [/ QUOTE ] No, I would not agree with this. I would not throw away EV by not c-betting in good c-betting spots because I've set an arbitrary rule not to c-bet below 12bbs. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this - obviously you should c-bet if it's a good spot to c-bet. The point I was trying to make was that stack sizes play a part in my decision about c-betting. I'm much less likely to c-bet in a marginal situation if it leaves my stack very short compared to a situation where I can still get away with a workable stack. If I'm raising and c-betting with 15BB, my stack is committed, so clearly I'm only c-betting in situations where I'd be willing to commit my stack.
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#39
08-23-2007, 10:59 AM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
Hi, I am new to this forum and relatively new to sit and go’s. I grasp the concept of the tournament equity section where all in coin flip confrontations early on can actually reduce your equity. However I have a couple questions:
1. In Hand 1-4, it is recommended to shove with AK after a raise and two limpers. Let’s assume no one has been eliminated, everyone has 2k in chips, and one person calls your push. Is your tournament equity reduced if you are called by someone with JJ and in a coin-flip situation? There is t460 more chips in this situation than if you call an all-in if MP1 open pushes and it is folded to you. Do the t460 chips make the difference or is it because there is fold equity? 2. How big a favorite do you have to be to call an all-in in low-blind play (2-1, 3-1, etc.)? How many chips have to be in the middle to make your all-in call worth the risk of your tournament life assuming only one person will call (t2460, t2600, etc.)?
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#40
08-23-2007, 01:17 PM
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Re: Sit \'n Go Strategy study group -- Part I: Low Blind Play
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Would others agree you need 12BB approx left to cbet a missed flop as a guide for beginners? [/ QUOTE ] No, I would not agree with this. I would not throw away EV by not c-betting in good c-betting spots because I've set an arbitrary rule not to c-bet below 12bbs. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this - obviously you should c-bet if it's a good spot to c-bet. The point I was trying to make was that stack sizes play a part in my decision about c-betting. I'm much less likely to c-bet in a marginal situation if it leaves my stack very short compared to a situation where I can still get away with a workable stack. If I'm raising and c-betting with 15BB, my stack is committed, so clearly I'm only c-betting in situations where I'd be willing to commit my stack. [/ QUOTE ] I see where you are coming from but I think with poker you just have to go with your gut sometimes, if it is a good spot to cbet then do it regardless of your stack. Also when you cbet with a short stack villains are going to be afraid to call or raise because they think you are committed. EX: blinds: 50/100 Stack: 1300 You raise to 300 w/ AK from CO+1 SB calls your raise Flop: Q49 rainbow SB Checks You bet 375 ( I like to make it a non slider number) this leaves your stack at 625. Now villain is thinking that you are committed to this pot and all of your chips are getting in no matter what. I think if its a good spot, do it. Poker is a mathematical game but its also a thinking game. If a sb limps into me and I think hell fold to an all in I will push any 2 into him. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut.
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