Ed Miller's Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...

[AKQJ10]

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you pull that nonsense in the real world and someone would gut you and leave you lying in the sewer.

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Um, no, I've done it in public cardrooms all the time. The cardroom publishes a minimum buy-in on the rake card. If they really meant the minimum were $200 for a $1-2 game instead of $50, they'd say $200. I've never had anyone gut me and leave me lying in the sewer, and the prospect doesn't keep me awake at night. I have, however, had people call short-stack reraises with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or JTo. Guess that'll show me.

However, given your anger management deficiencies, I certainly hope you don't play in public cardrooms. Someone might buy in for the wrong amount, and this post might end up as evidence at your trial. Along with all the surveillance videos, of course.

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(Edited for truth)

Do me a favor. Learn to play poker in a way where I have an edge against you. Drop a level or 2 or 3 until you are comfortable, buy-in for the Max, and play, then come back and donk off all your chips to me because you're playing a deep stack game you don't play well.

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Well, that's very benevolent advice of you, but neither the beginner nor the cardroom is primarily concerned with maximizing the number of the beginner's chips that end up in your stack.

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The hit-and-run kiddie game isin't teaching you ANYTHING useful. (And yet I feel compelled to bitch and moan about it, probably because I don't know how to beat it.)

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Run along to uSNL or somewhere now. Time to cry, moan, and wail about those mean beginners who won't just walk up and present you with a wad of Benjamin Franklins before sitting down.

This forum is for beginners, and I'm going to continue flaming people who post such self-serving, beginner-hostile drivel.

[hyper_dermic]

going south with money is not allowed in public card rooms.

You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

At a private card room, you will get seriously hurt. Illegal gambling institutions are not filled with the nicest people. But there is a code. Ive never felt threatened walking out of a private card room with a pocket full of cash, because even though alot of the people are criminals, they respect a code of conduct. and i NEVER hit and run.
its just bad form.

This is hardly hostile to beginners, its just the truth.
Im trying to give the kid good advice. you dont play limit to learn how to play NL, and you dont learn SSS if u want to play deep stacks.

Its only gonna take longer to learn to play for real. Hes gonna be armed with some preflop ideas, but lost postflop.
how is that helping him?

From the sheer amount of his posts, it seems he wants to play for real.
If i took it the wrong way, then i sorry, go back to your SSS game.

My advice was to drop levels until he feels comfortable playing. and obviously move up when hes comfortable moving up. Losing money and taking hits is the way it works. If your afriad to take a hit then dont move up.

My big issue with people playing micro-short stacks is its an exploit. Its terribly "cheap" (please excuse the pun).
nothing more than a novelty.

Its almost like shooting angles in live poker.. sure, you can do it.. but its a real douchbag move. I dont think douchebaggery should be encouraged, lord knows theres already enough of it online.

I just feel this method is steering the person down the wrong path if they want to learn to play with deep stacks.

-hyp

[Teddie]

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going south with money is not allowed in public card rooms.

You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

At a private card room, you will get seriously hurt. Illegal gambling institutions are not filled with the nicest people. But there is a code. Ive never felt threatened walking out of a private card room with a pocket full of cash, because even though alot of the people are criminals, they respect a code of conduct. and i NEVER hit and run.
its just bad form.


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Quality post. Criminals respect a code of conduct now?! lol, didnt know that. It's a shame they arent so respectful with the law.


Dont play in illegal cardrooms full of scum if they are likely to "gut you" for breaking there gay little code of conduct.

[hyper_dermic]

Yes, Criminals and gamblers usually do have an unwritten code of conduct. Its called being civil and respecting fellow players.

I know im sounding like a fuddy-duddy.. but the new breed of internet players seem to lack that respect of the game.

-hyp

[AKQJ10]

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You cannot buy in for $50, double up, leave then come right back and play for $50.
There is usually a time penalty before they will seat you at another table.

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Of course, but what does this have to do with anything? No one's suggesting ratholing. Miller himself suggests continuing to play your now-deeper stack after doubling up, to gain experience. But if you misplay it and donk it off, at least you're donking off profit. Alternatively, cash out, go to a game you're more comfortable playing in, wait the hour, or what have you.

Perhaps your advice is intended to be helpful. But i'm always pretty suspicious of advice that ends up helping the sharks as the beginner loses money on "lessons". Whether short-stacking is a flaw in NLHE is a fair question, one that Miller touches on very briefly in GSIHE, but sort of irrelevant to the beginner. To the cardroom, deep stacked NLHE is a flawed game because the fish bust out too fast and there's not enough variance to keep the game stable.

To an extent I agree with the endorsement of moving down stakes and learning deeper stacks -- once the beginner knows basic preflop theory, at least. But that's mostly an online option. If you prefer to play B&M but aren't bankrolled for the lowest game on the board then you can either grind out some bankroll, practicing good preflop play as you go, or give up and go play online. Personally as boring as SSNL is, I'd much rather play it than grind online (although I am grinding online because I live 4 hours from the nearest poker room).

[hyper_dermic]

well, if the SS decides to stay around and play with the profits then they are ok in my book. From the content of some of the posts, it seemed like the norm was to win a pot then split.

If Miller suggest staying around to gain expeirence, then i can see the benifit for a very new player.
Otherwise the only lesson i can see being learned by SSS is preflop selection. If you can even call it a "lesson". One can commit beginner preflop selections to memory in 1 or 2 sessions.
After that, the player is left in the dark. With no Post-flop skills, they are going to get destroyed.

The SSS may instill a false sense of security. The new player will win some money playing supershort, then when playing deep, or even medium they find themselves making very costly mistakes on the turn and river.

I never had the problem with having to learn NL as a total beginner in a card room. When i started playing they didnt really spread NL. Mostly 7-Stud and Limit (Jersey loves its 7-stud) These games were a bit more beginner friendly, especially low-limit stud.

Now NL is where the $$ is, so i followed... to make the swtich i split my buy-ins into 2 or 3 smaller buy-ins rather than 1 large chunk. Smaller buy-ins are definatly good for people who arent made of money. Its the micro-buy ins that i think are dangerous. Only having enough for the flop before one is commited doesnt help you learn post-flop play.

Im not hating on online either... I live less than 2hrs away from AC, and there are TONS of illegal card rooms coming and going, yet i still grind it out online cuz i can do it anytime, anywhere. Not to mention i can sharpen my game by seeing countless hands at a fraction of the price. Online poker IS one of the greatist things to happen to the game, but with it comes a price.

(oh, and if you live pretty far from a legal poker room... maybe you should start an "underground" one in your area [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], or search one out... the ones around here run a tight ship. Free (good) food, all different stakes, rake isint bad, and the players are usually looser than in casinos.
Of course you always run the risk of getting Gutted if you go south [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

-hyp

[Doyan]

Anyone got a link describing Ed Millers system? Curious to see what its all about. Found one post about it but it was pretty vague.

[AKQJ10]

I've intentionally tried to keep the details off the wiki to avoid eroding the value of GSIHE. Of course there's still a lot of value in the text telling you how to use it (not to mention, it builds on concepts explained in the limit section) but I still didn't want 2+2 accusing the wiki of undermining demand for their books.

[AKQJ10]

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Can you get away from either MP3 or BB's hand post-flop when playing against an opponent with so little chips?

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I suppose that's the whole point! (?)

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YES! You get it!

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And I can't find the relevant portion of the thread so I'll glom it on here. The question came up whether a typical 2+2er really understands NLHE enough that they should be playing deep stacks, or whether digging into deep stacks is the best way to start learning.

Well, not to pick on any individual (because I've certainly made similar misplays), but this hand history is typical of what we do before we learn to adapt our play to effective stack sizes. We call reraises with QJs, hoping to get lucky, and forgetting to account for the fact that the reraiser has already stuck in 15% of her stack or more.

But if you play 20 BBL short stacks, you're only playing one stack size (yours). Then as you learn to do it properly, you learn a new size, somewhere around 40 BBL. Now you're playing mostly 40 BBL effective stacks with a few shorter ones. As you get better at adapting to those different stacks, you add in some 75 and 100 and even 150 and 200 BBL stacks when you get them.

Or, on the other hand, you can start out buying in 100 BBL deep to impress the cool kids on uSNL -- no kiddie poker for you, no sir -- and make poor plays because you keep forgetting that your effective stack size varies from 0.5 BBL to 100 BBL or more.

Start out playing scales, keep practicing, and maybe one day you'll work your way to the Rach 3. Or start out picking out the Rach 3 note by note because "baby piano" just isn't for you. Your choice.

[QuickLearner]

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If Miller suggest staying around to gain expeirence, then i can see the benifit for a very new player.
Otherwise the only lesson i can see being learned by SSS is preflop selection. If you can even call it a "lesson". One can commit beginner preflop selections to memory in 1 or 2 sessions.
After that, the player is left in the dark. With no Post-flop skills, they are going to get destroyed.

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Hyp, you've reached the essence of the SSS. Beginners don't have post-flop skills. That's why removing that aspect from the game helps them. And while they're sitting at the table folding their trash (and speculative hands that you might want to play) they get to see the rest of you play post-flop...and maybe begin the learning process. So why don't you let novices play in a way that saves some bankroll so that they don't learn to despise the game?

Short stackers aren't the players who should steam you. Rat-holers are. Nobody likes them.