quick question

[thrasher789]

I was reading a hand chart from Phil Gordon and he said to raise pocket 7's from any postion (if your the first into a pot)

My question is: is it really profitable to raise 7's from early postion in the long run? You'll only flop a set 1/8 times and with a pocket 7's your vulnerable to half the deck, it seems unlikely to me that putting money in with 7's (or 8's for that matter) from ANY postion is very +EV in the long run.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
I was reading a hand chart from Phil Gordon and he said to raise pocket 7's from any postion (if your the first into a pot)

My question is: is it really profitable to raise 7's from early postion in the long run? You'll only flop a set 1/8 times and with a pocket 7's your vulnerable to half the deck, it seems unlikely to me that putting money in with 7's (or 8's for that matter) from ANY postion is very +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really all depends on the number of players, effective stacks, blind levels (or blinds + antes if its a tournament), whether you expect to be reraised a lot preflop, whether you expect to get called down a lot post flop by hands like TPWK, whether players in late position are tricky and try to steal a lot, whether players in late position are straight forward, etc.

However, since 77 is one of the 10 best possible starting hands, getting more money in the pot that you open preflop is probably a good thing since you're likely to have the best hand. And if you start with the best hand, any non-pair hand is only going to out flop you about 33% of the time. Post flop, you can c-b usually, c/f occasionally, and every one time in seven pick up a set that will be fairly well hidden. That means as long as you don't over play your underpair post flop vs calling stations and nut peddlers you'll probably have +EV open raising preflop with 77.

[QuickLearner]

Albert Moulton's post is on-the-button. The only thing I could add is that in my experience it's easier to stack your opponent those times you make your set when the pot has be raised preflop. Once people have invested in their starting cards they seem less likely to throw them away when faced with your eventual shove.

If you get the reputation of someone who raises less-than-monster hands you'll get more action with KK and AA as well. Playing that way does increase your variance, so make sure you're properly bankrolled for your game.

[bm120]

i know i might get flamed for this.. but heres my .02. I open raise any pp from any spot. My thinking behind this is if I open raise 22 from ep and get called 3/4 times by one person, the 1/8 times i do hit a set, it will be very hard for my opponent to put me on three twos, because they wouldn't raise up 22, it is like set mining, but i'm building the pot when it is still cheap to build it. flame away.

[tarheeljks]

you can open 22 from ep, but you can't call a raise

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
you can open 22 from ep, but you can't call a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

A reraise, you mean?

You certainly can, but it depends on the implied odds you're getting -- which in turn depends on effective stacks, your opponent's propensity to stack off with one pair, etc.

[bm120]

ak is exactly right, if the reraiser is deep enough i would not hesitate to call a reraise.

[AKQJ10]

You also want them to pay off, though. Deep stacks in the hands of a careful player don't make for such big implied odds.

I suppose set-over-set is a bit of a concern with 22 and VERY deep stacks. PNLHE is the first acknowledgment I've seen in print that bottom set could start to have a IO problem. I don't think it matters unless the stacks are incredibly deep, though.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can open 22 from ep, but you can't call a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

A reraise, you mean?

You certainly can, but it depends on the implied odds you're getting -- which in turn depends on effective stacks, your opponent's propensity to stack off with one pair, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i meant a rr, and i was assuming 100bb stacks.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
You also want them to pay off, though. Deep stacks in the hands of a careful player don't make for such big implied odds.

I suppose set-over-set is a bit of a concern with 22 and VERY deep stacks. PNLHE is the first acknowledgment I've seen in print that bottom set could start to have a IO problem. I don't think it matters unless the stacks are incredibly deep, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. w/normal stack sizes you'd have to be against the king of the nits or have a sick read to fold a set in fear of a higher set