TPGK faces aggro

Fadook · #1 10-04-2007, 09:30 AM

Recently replaced a shorthanded table with FR in my multiabling routine, so I'm a little rusty.

Most of the hands I've played with CO have been shorthanded, where he's always seeed like a pretty decent player. Some occasionally misplaced aggession, but nothing too crazy. BTN is really loose and stupid.

.5/1 8-handed
Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Preflop: Hero raises, 3 folds, CO raises, BTN calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, BTN calls, Hero calls.

Turn (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero ?

Is this an obvious get to showdown as cheaply as possible?

sean c · #2 10-04-2007, 09:50 AM

Get to showdown cheaply. If the turn checks through bet the river. Betting here calling a raise and a river bet is donating money.

shadow. · #3 10-04-2007, 10:24 AM

c/r flop. if 3-bet, fold the turn.

not exactly sure what button is doing...but you said that he's loose and stupid and thus he doesn't worry me that much. he got have a hand like 77 or 99.

we really need to find out if co has a hand that we beat (ak, jj, tt, 99) or whether we're up against a hand that crushes us (aa, kk, qq, aq). seems like combinatorically, it's in favor of us being ahead, but that's just a guess done in my head.

anyway, c/ring here will get us that info and value out of our strong hand against button, who is a moron, and against co when we're ahead and he can't let go (ie jj, tt) (also, ak will peel.)

holla

KitCloudkicker · #4 10-04-2007, 10:37 AM

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anyway, c/ring here will get us that info

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lol?

i thought aussie battler purged this "raise for info" from the micros for good? yet it still shows up? pls stop raising for info and pick a line that loses you least when behind wins you the most when ahead.

you cant raise for info here. any info you get is not 100% reliable and if you have 5 outs it would be bad to fold until the river anyway.

in this spot c/c 3 times or c/c twice and b/f the river are both fine.

sean c · #5 10-04-2007, 10:41 AM

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c/r flop. if 3-bet, fold the turn.

not exactly sure what button is doing...but you said that he's loose and stupid and thus he doesn't worry me that much. he got have a hand like 77 or 99.

we really need to find out if co has a hand that we beat (ak, jj, tt, 99) or whether we're up against a hand that crushes us (aa, kk, qq, aq). seems like combinatorically, it's in favor of us being ahead, but that's just a guess done in my head.

anyway, c/ring here will get us that info and value out of our strong hand against button, who is a moron, and against co when we're ahead and he can't let go (ie jj, tt) (also, ak will peel.)

holla

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wow great post shadow.

shadow. · #6 10-04-2007, 10:44 AM

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anyway, c/ring here will get us that info

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lol?

i thought aussie battler purged this "raise for info" from the micros for good? yet it still shows up?

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i knew that i was going to get this response. don't be mistaken, when you act, you get information. with each action that you take, you get more information. acting PURELY for information is a losing play. taking an action that will allow you to lose the least when you're behind and gain the most when you're ahead BECAUSE of additional information is a strong, winning play. like the one i advocate.

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pls stop raising for info and pick a line that loses you least when behind wins you the most when ahead.

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lose the least- c/r, call 3-bet. c/f turn. 1.5 bets. c/c,c/c,c/c (or b/f)- lose 2.5 bets. that's 1 bet. that's a huge difference in terms of winning vs. losing poker.

gain the most- c/r, opponent calls. that's 1 bet right there. depending on his hand, you're either going to get 3 or 2 or 1. weight the hand ranges and i think that you'll average a little over 2 bets. granted, that's a little less than c/c, c/c, c/c suggests. but if you're ahead, then he's likely not to bet the river. so in truth, they're about equal (most of the time).

but what distinguishes my play is that BECAUSE of more information, you're able to lose a significant amount less than blindly allowing your opponent to control the initiative and hand dynamic.

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you cant raise for info here. any info you get is not 100% reliable and if you have 5 outs it would be bad to fold until the river anyway.

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i think a c/r getting 3-bet here by a pf 3-bettor is pretty reliable. of course, not everything in poker is 100%. but that's a pretty damn strong signal.

holla

Fadook · #7 10-04-2007, 11:48 AM

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lose the least- c/r, call 3-bet. c/f turn. 1.5 bets. c/c,c/c,c/c (or b/f)- lose 2.5 bets. that's 1 bet. that's a huge difference in terms of winning vs. losing poker.

gain the most- c/r, opponent calls. that's 1 bet right there. depending on his hand, you're either going to get 3 or 2 or 1. weight the hand ranges and i think that you'll average a little over 2 bets. granted, that's a little less than c/c, c/c, c/c suggests. but if you're ahead, then he's likely not to bet the river. so in truth, they're about equal (most of the time).

but what distinguishes my play is that BECAUSE of more information, you're able to lose a significant amount less than blindly allowing your opponent to control the initiative and hand dynamic.

i think a c/r getting 3-bet here by a pf 3-bettor is pretty reliable. of course, not everything in poker is 100%. but that's a pretty damn strong signal.

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I like this a lot. I've often thought about how calling down can be an expensive way to confirm that you are actually behind. In this situation, if CO 3-bets after I c-r the flop, I can pretty safely assume that I'm well behind. I'm clearly representing at least TPGK, and he doesn't care. Giving myself a full 5 outs would be bad, so even though the pot could be 9.5 BB on the turn, I can still fold safely. And as shadow said, if I do have the best hand I'm getting max value out of BTN.

Caffeinated · #8 10-04-2007, 12:44 PM

Would folding pre-flop be considered to tight of an action?

I suppose I have been tossing hands like this away if it was early and not suited and wondering if that is possibly a mistake on my part? (playing .25/.5)

Thanks

Fadook · #9 10-04-2007, 01:47 PM

Folding pf is definitely too tight. This is a standard raise.

Sushiglutton · #10 10-04-2007, 03:33 PM

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i think a c/r getting 3-bet here by a pf 3-bettor is pretty reliable. of course, not everything in poker is 100%. but that's a pretty damn strong signal.

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In theory (at least) CO may 3-bet JJ-99, AK, maybe for info maybe to get a cheap show-down, protect agaisnt BTN thinking we are weakish or whatever reason he may have. How often does he need to do this before CR/fold turn UI if 3-bet becomes a loser?

What I want to know is if you have analyzed how certain we need to be (95%, 90%, 80%, or something else?) we are beaten before the line u suggested becoes correct.