FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)

[apestyles]

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4)Were the real payouts posted? I just skimmed this thread but didn't see it.

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It was a dinky little 50 +1 +1... like 5600 for first.

[kleath]

Nothing really new to add except he should be shoving any two and you should be folding all but top 3% or so and thats gonna be the most +ev line for both of you. Shoving here is pretty bad, as someone else said this is a common sng type situation and ESP the way ape described the BB you should really be playing tighter than a nuns anus assuming apestyles knows what he's doing(I think the answer is already known)

[KingDan]

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4)Were the real payouts posted? I just skimmed this thread but didn't see it.

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It was a dinky little 50 +1 +1... like 5600 for first.

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I change my line. Charder should

1)insta jam
2)advertise
3)call anyone who folds a huge pussy. anyone who does math is a nerd. "I play on instincts yo"
4)tighten up in the future at more important tournies

I think having a rep as someone who spitecalls can be worth a lot of money

[kleath]

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heh, I dont like my play very much either to be honest... But its so fun abusing bubbles, + on my 8th o9th belvedere and pineapple juice. I assumed he was familiar with icm and would need 99 or TT plus to call. Even with that assumption the risk vs. reward just isnt there.

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If he is familiar with icm you should be autoshoving with tape over your screen unless you think he's tightened up opening on the button to be super tight 3 handed.

[apestyles]

yes, but i got called by A9o... so bad assumption eh? Also, assuming he's opening 25-30 percent there and calling with 2.3 percent (TT+) it is def +ev but not by that much. (Too lazy to do ev calc + I'm 10 tabling)

[PrayingMantis]

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one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

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Having a good feel for how ICM relates to different situations can be very helpful in final tables, IMO, esp since so many players have little idea what they're doing, in any level of buy-in (no offence to OP, but this hand is a good exmample. And I assume he is a strong player otherwise). So it can be a real advantage. But I wouldn't say you need to be a curtains-like expert, it's probably a waste of time if you're not playing SNGs for a living.

Although in second thought ICM mistakes in big buy-in MTTs final tables, can cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. So maybe it's worth it if you're planning to get there.

[kleath]

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one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

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Having a good feel for how ICM relates to different situations can be very helpful in final tables, IMO, esp since so many players have little idea what they're doing, in any level of buy-in (no offence to OP, but this hand is a good exmample. And I assume he is a strong player otherwise). So it can be a real advantage. But I wouldn't say you need to be a curtains-like expert, it's probably a waste of time if you're not playing SNGs for a living.

Although in second thought ICM mistakes in big buy-in MTTs final tables, can cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. So maybe it's worth it if you're planning to get there.

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An icm mistake will never be worth hundreds of thousands in an MTT, sunday million similar situation he's probably not even losing 5 figures with a similar play. When a sng player is saying this type of play is "really bad" or anything like that it really only applies to the decision itself, in this case folding to the 3bet is pretty clear, but its not going to end up costing that much, apestyles posted this couple posts ago and its true.

[PrayingMantis]

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one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

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Having a good feel for how ICM relates to different situations can be very helpful in final tables, IMO, esp since so many players have little idea what they're doing, in any level of buy-in (no offence to OP, but this hand is a good exmample. And I assume he is a strong player otherwise). So it can be a real advantage. But I wouldn't say you need to be a curtains-like expert, it's probably a waste of time if you're not playing SNGs for a living.

Although in second thought ICM mistakes in big buy-in MTTs final tables, can cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. So maybe it's worth it if you're planning to get there.

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An icm mistake will never be worth hundreds of thousands in an MTT, sunday million similar situation he's probably not even losing 5 figures with a similar play. When a sng player is saying this type of play is "really bad" or anything like that it really only applies to the decision itself, in this case folding to the 3bet is pretty clear, but its not going to end up costing that much, apestyles posted this couple posts ago and its true.

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I agree with you about the magnitude of ICM mistakes. When I said losing hundreds of thousands, I said big buy-in MTTs. Didn't mean sunday million, of course, was thinking more about WPT events and such.

[Todd Terry]

A couple thoughts on this. Calculating against ATC is going to yield a lower equity than what you have here, because given the preflop action (unless ape has been doing this with every hand), the bottom 30-40% of hands is probably a better range to put him on, which gives ZJ around 65%. And raising to 72K is not shoving, there's still room for him to fold terrible hands (especially if he believes ZJ is playing "optimally" and is only shoving superhuge hands). So if 73% is what you need, I think ZJ's play is close to that, all things considered.

[Bond18]

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one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

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Nope, leave it to Curtains to come posting something i hadn't thought of that's clearly very smart.