FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
curtains am i correct that you need approximately a little less than 73% equity to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno didnt do the math, that sounds a bit higher than I'd expect, and I don't know the prize structure, but I'm sure it's right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, 73% is about what my calculations show you would need, so you probably need TT-AA.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its definitely not hard to play this hand with position if he flat calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are at a big disadvantage due to stack sizes playing this postflop. Aside from him applying pressure, you just don't want to gamble for all your chips.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

well not shoving, but 3 betting. And i thought I can 4bet and he fold (if he made a standard reraise), but after the big reraise i was 90% sure he was calling my shove, but i new i crushed his range. I think part of my fault here, is my pride, which shouldn't be a factor, but i wasn't going too let him abuse me constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

He should be abusing you constantly. The way to deal with that is to play supersolid and passively preflop and postflop. Maybe he will abuse too much and lose a chunk of chips bluffing or overplaying.

Also, your strategy should be to try to bust the short stack and let ape bust the shortstack.

Don't get into a macho thing. Just play a strategy suitable for the situation.

[TheNewf]

one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

[Hattifnatt]

[ QUOTE ]
one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think studying it very detailed give a huge edge by any means over someone that have studied it a bit and understands it pretty well.

however, a person having a good understanding on it and understand in a good way how big the gap for calling (or pushing without FE) or pushing really can become bec of ICM, have a huge edge over someone that has no clue of it but are good in other means.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its definitely not hard to play this hand with position if he flat calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are at a big disadvantage due to stack sizes playing this postflop. Aside from him applying pressure, you just don't want to gamble for all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...pot is still pretty small, we have position and can use pot control if it makes sense.

[TheNewf]

I think mpst MTTers don't really know much about ICM at all. They read harrington and he says it's usually good to just play to win so they do that. The better players (including lots of the good posters here) have some intuitive idea about when they have to adjust as seen in the replies to an extreme situation like this post. And this is really just a small variation on an extremely standard STT situation. What about when there are 5 people or 6 players left, how much should varying stack sizes effect the way you play? There's a big differnece between having some intuitive idea you can't call off your stack light here and knowing you need at least 73% equity. I had no idea the nubmer was that high and judging from the replies a lrage % of the forum didn't either.

[KingDan]

Couple thoughts on this

1)Whatever the calculation suggests (apparently 73%) I would say call a bit looser. Apestyles is gonna keep [censored] with you, and he can keep shorty on life support for a while.

2)My first thought was consider doing something else PF (openlimping/minraising/etc)

3) I dislike Ape's repop as well. Him getting called by A9o (or 77 or AJo etc) is a huge disaster. I think its a really bad spot to raise to 72 if you are calling a shove... giving him the idea of fold equity will just make him shove a bit more IMO. Way more likely to 4B allin with the illusion of fold equity than to call.

For repopping to better than folding dude has to fold a reallyyyy high % of the time.

4)Were the real payouts posted? I just skimmed this thread but didn't see it.

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you get to big final tables? At them, how often do you have super marginal spots? If good players [censored]-up, I think it's too often just having the wrong game-plan (3betting real wide in a spot were you should be avoiding gambles for instance).

I doubt being an ICM super-expert would effect you all that much. I think being ridiculous at correct calling ranges (pokerstove knowledge+ability to divide) would be more helpful.

That said I'm assuming good players have at least some idea maybe from SNG experience or doing calcs by hand while up-an-coming or whatever.

[apestyles]

heh, I dont like my play very much either to be honest... But its so fun abusing bubbles, + on my 8th o9th belvedere and pineapple juice. I assumed he was familiar with icm and would need 99 or TT plus to call. Even with that assumption the risk vs. reward just isnt there. Basically shoving 50 bbs for 5 with a random hand is a little iffy. Its one of those wierd spots where both players in the hand are -ev.

If he had limped button I probably wouldnt have even completed (thats how bad my hand was).