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  #1  
Old 07-16-2007, 07:56 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

Opponent is a fairly good but very aggressive TAG. Wondering a bit about turn play, flop 3bet, and also river play. I play strange nowadays sometimes so I like to post hands like this. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Absolute Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (6.60 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.30 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (9.30 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.30 BB
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:12 PM
NinaWilliams NinaWilliams is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

Flop 3 bet is standard, I dont think theres a big difference between that and c/r the turn. I dont get the turn and river. Does anyone actually cap this flop for the free card with AK and KJ? If he does, I still think c/c the turn is correct because I dont feel good about folding to a raise, and it prevents us from getting owned by QT 66 and maybe QQ if he decided not to cap with it pf, and maybe Tx if he decided to go nuts with it on the flop.

Im hoping that someone can explain the river, because intuitively I dont like it given how you played the turn, but I dont really know why.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:35 PM
MacGuyV MacGuyV is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

This would be my thought process thruout the hand:
Flop raise: lol Qx is getting pwned.
Flop cap: Qx never caps, either a draw or a monster.
Turn call: Looks like a draw w/ an outside shot of a badly played Qx.
River card: [censored], well he's never betting a worse hand if I check so bet/pray?
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:38 PM
yourface yourface is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

many TAGs would never cap a strong hand there, they would always wait for the turn. if that was your read then your turn bet is good because he most likely has a draw that was planning on taking a free card.

river should be a b/f imo. if he does have Qx hands here he's not going to vb many of them, but he will likely call because zomg big pot. I would feel comfortable folding to a raise because given the action he really shouldn't expect a bluff to work and I do think that JK is a significant part of his range

edited for clarity
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:43 PM
jstill jstill is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

i dont hate anything about this hand for a couple different reasons, but I honestly think vs some tags 3betting the flop may be incorrect even tho its standard vs most villains.

fwiw I dont raise this flop vs the 3bettor unless i have a gutshot or oesd or other draw and want to fold out underpairs to the T or maybe JJ. Either that or I have AA beat. vs a very aggro tag 3betting the flop is fine since he mite raise any top pair or lesser made hands esp if he mite call and bump AQ again on the turn 3betting has tons of value. If he wont put in more action after the 3bet unless ur beat but doesnt raise and then take freecards (ie he ll fire again with any hand KJ J9 AJ ect even tho hands ud fold to a turn bet likely just fold the flop), cr'ing the turn is probably better but I dont end up doing it often becuz most players are overaggro or take freecards and part of me thinks it might be easier for them to get away from their hands when I take that line? (probably also true vs a flop 3bet but I think they get away from it less often? just kinda my perception could be incorrect on both accounts).

I like the turn donk vs many tag's flop cap becuz they usually call to pop the turn with 2 pair or sets and cap oesds for the freecard or play TP this way then ck behind or bet the turn and ck the river for whatever reason? very read dependent though on their tendencies just like the best choice of flop line b3b or call and cr the turn.

I like the river line as well, though I bet fold here a ton. He should be able to fold J9 and the only draw he could have been capping to freecard (KJ) hit, so I dont want to pay 2 bets to showdown and if hes a very aggro tag I bet he cant resist but to bet fold KQ AQ or even QJ so all those hands likely bet themselves for u when u ck anyways so u probably dont lose any value there vs that range of hands and who knows maybe he bluffs something stupid when u ck as well like AJ (unlikely, I think the other points are what give the most merit to ur river line).

interesting line choices tho, NH i say, I'm sure there was a reason for everything you did that was related to your opponents tendencies even if you weren't overtly thinking about it at the time, or you were and just didnt mention those tendencies specifically in ur original post with ur more generic aggro tag read.

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  #6  
Old 07-16-2007, 09:03 PM
Heisenb3rg Heisenb3rg is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

I generally go for the turn C/R on a high dry board. He'll fire the turn barrel with KJ or J9 almost all the time...
There's plenty of marginal hands he'll get agressive with but shutdown once you 3-bet the flop.

People showdown too much so you dont have to worry about him folding much...

Things that make me deviate my play between turn c/r and flop RR is.

a) Number of turn scare cards that will stop him from betting turn or calling the turn check/raise.
b) How i've recently bluff with my draws
c) How showdown bound he is (more likely to reraise the flop if hes foldy)
d) How agressive he'll play a weaker draw (more likely to raise the flop)
e) Has he taken turn check lines before.
f) How agressive he'll play his marginal hands (wider raising distribution on the flop, makes me more likely to c/r turn, the most value comes from sucking money out of pairs)

Then weighing all these factors...

As played, I play it the same because most people go for the turn to raise there monsters so I suspect a straight draw most of the time... Very few people have the balls to raise a straight draw on the turn. The T just made it more likely he has the straight draw.

On the river I bet/fold, because a hand like AQ or KQ will check behind too often (if he does have that), KJ may get scared of the full house and you only have to put in one bet.. Also, you may get stupid call from J9. No way he is raising this river as a bluff if you respect his play.....

I rarely have the balls to lay it down to a river raise, so in the heat of the moment, the way you played it may be better because I think he has a straight a good % of the time.

Unless of course you expect him to be thinking on the 3rd/4th level against yoy..which I REALLLY doubt...

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  #7  
Old 07-16-2007, 09:19 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

Vs. an aggro semi-bluffy opponent, I play the same up to the river, where I flip a coin. Many LAGTAG villains will absolutely play KJ/J9/89s this way after getting 3-bet on a steal to overrep their hand, so I like the turn lead.

On the river, I really don't feel like B/F can be right given the pot size (and I've been raised by AQ/KK on this board reasonably often, so I have a slight preference for B/C, but against a guy who's good enough to fold something like J9 here, C/C has slightly more value.
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2007, 03:30 AM
Oink Oink is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

I really dont like the turn donk. But I guess we have been over that a ton and I just disagree with some posters here.

I expect villain to take the free card like never. In my experience its only LAG fish and bad TAGs that cap flop for free card in this spot.

Other than that I agree with Heis. Your hand has just enough strength to call flop and c/r turn but not enough to give action on both streets. I would 3-bet flop with lesser holdings and monsters.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2007, 03:37 AM
TheWunderkind TheWunderkind is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

I like every street until the River, this is a b/f vs this guy for me, that he would fold J9 vs a bet isnt an argument for c/c at all since he wouldnt bet it either.

Anyone fo you would bet that river with AQ in villains shoes?
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2007, 08:40 AM
secretprankster secretprankster is offline
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Default Re: $5/10 SH against a fairly good TAG

[ QUOTE ]
I expect villain to take the free card like never. In my experience its only LAG fish and bad TAGs that cap flop for free card in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the turn bet is OK. I see decent/good players cap here with KJ a lot; plus, if villain is good, what worse made hand is he capping the flop with? When we 3-bet the flop on this board I think we turn our hand face up (which doesn't make it wrong - it's LHE, sometimes you have to do it). He's not capping with KQ here in my experience. Haven't played AP in a few years though.

The river I don't really get, but it's a tough spot because I just don't see that many worse hands in his range. The thing is, you're never checkfolding after playing the hand like this, so he shouldn't be bluffing, and I think the times he does show up with a made hand, you collect more via betting vs. checking. Unless there's some interesting dynamic between you, that's not a good card to bluffraise because your range looks like AA-QQ/TT, and he can't be expecting aces to fold ever really.

Interesting hand though. Post thoughts pls Entity.
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