KK - 4-bet pot against TAG - 175 bb deep. - Page 3

Some9 · #21 10-23-2007, 02:01 AM

pf
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equity
Hand 0: 52.900% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 47.100% { KcKd }

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flop
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Board: Qh Qs 8h

equity
Hand 0: 51.003% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 48.997% { KcKd }

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seems like call pf call flop is best but just barely +EV.

yad · #22 10-23-2007, 02:02 AM

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Yea I dont think this villain ever has AK here

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then fold PF

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preflop he could have AK. but after betting flop and turn this way? no.

pineapple888 · #23 10-23-2007, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

pf
[ QUOTE ]

equity
Hand 0: 52.900% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 47.100% { KcKd }

[/ QUOTE ]

flop
[ QUOTE ]
Board: Qh Qs 8h

equity
Hand 0: 51.003% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 48.997% { KcKd }

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like call pf call flop is best but just barely +EV.

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Well, this points out how KK isn't all that great a hand against a tight 4-betting range to start with, plus it gets worse because what are you supposed to do postflop? Fold on a ragged flop because he has AA? Call because he's cbetting with AK? It's really hard to get to the 47% equity you list unless you hit a set AND he has AA AND he isn't smart enough to realize you hit your set.

loosbastard · #24 10-23-2007, 02:06 AM

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preflop he could have AK. but after betting flop and turn this way? no.

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Meh...people do some stupid stuff w/ AK unimproved after putting this much $$$ in, but yeah it is AA way more than AK especially given that we hold 2 of the kings. My comment about fold PF was to those that want to fold flop though...not turn.

Fat Nicky · #25 10-23-2007, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pf
[ QUOTE ]

equity
Hand 0: 52.900% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 47.100% { KcKd }

[/ QUOTE ]

flop
[ QUOTE ]
Board: Qh Qs 8h

equity
Hand 0: 51.003% { AA, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 48.997% { KcKd }

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like call pf call flop is best but just barely +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this points out how KK isn't all that great a hand against a tight 4-betting range to start with, plus it gets worse because what are you supposed to do postflop? Fold on a ragged flop because he has AA? Call because he's cbetting with AK? It's really hard to get to the 47% equity you list unless you hit a set AND he has AA AND he isn't smart enough to realize you hit your set.

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pinapple

lets say villain checked this turn. would you say we're ahead of his range at that point?

pineapple888 · #26 10-23-2007, 02:17 AM

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lets say villain checked this turn. would you say we're ahead of his range at that point?

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Well, since I have his range as [AA-KK], I've already folded. But let's make it [AA, KK, AK] for the sake of argument, and stick with your original "fake" hand of course. He wouldn't have to be all that smart to check AA there to make KK think it was ahead and let you draw to your two outs and then rape you on the river. And he wouldn't have to be all that dumb to bet AK again to make it look like a slightly overeager AA. So you still don't know where you stand.

yad · #27 10-23-2007, 02:19 AM

pineapple, what you're saying makes some logical sense but in my experience people play like complete wusses in pots like this -- in general he will simply not fire again after the flop with AK. after all, WE could easily have AA here.

pineapple888 · #28 10-23-2007, 02:24 AM

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pineapple, what you're saying makes some logical sense but in my experience people play like complete wusses in pots like this -- in general he will simply not fire again after the flop with AK. after all, WE could easily have AA here.

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Well, yeah, that's a bit of a reach, which is why I said "all that dumb". But AA could very well check, then where are we? Check behind, fold to a bet on a blank river? Then what are we even doing in the pot?

Unknown Soldier · #29 10-23-2007, 05:09 AM

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gimme his range pre and post

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AA/AK probably...so if we're folding this flop we're obv putting him squarely on AA right? If that's the case, why not just fold pre?

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im so tempted to fold pre, but the chance that QQ/AK is in his range makes me inclined to call. Marginal spot. His range is weighted towards KK+. However, post flop he'd have to be retarded to fire with AK here, QQ made it.

Bramsterdam · #30 10-23-2007, 05:38 AM

Concerning the 'real' hand; villain pushes turn which is really bad right?

Hero's (possible) calling range for 4bet: QQ+, AKs, AKo.
AKs/AKo fold on the flop.

Villain loses to QQ and KK on the turn and only splits(!) with one AA combination.