Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review

[remi983]

Jeff- I'm guessing you think the book is worth paying $25 for. From the previews it looks like its more of a narrative than a how-to-book; would you recommend it for an incoming 1L? Is most of its value purely entertainment? Any practical wisdom?

Noah- I've heard through the grapevine that reading law review articles relating specifically to class content is very useful for exams. Did you do this? From your posts earlier it seems like your whole exam prep strategy was more idea oriented than black letter oriented, true? I'm sure there's a delicate balance between thoroughly analyzing a case and thinking about the structures, why's, etc of a subject. Can you give some general advice on the types of things you think about/emphasize when getting ready for an exam? Does it all come down to seeing the forest for the trees?

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff- I'm guessing you think the book is worth paying $25 for. From the previews it looks like its more of a narrative than a how-to-book; would you recommend it for an incoming 1L? Is most of its value purely entertainment? Any practical wisdom?

Noah- I've heard through the grapevine that reading law review articles relating specifically to class content is very useful for exams. Did you do this? From your posts earlier it seems like your whole exam prep strategy was more idea oriented than black letter oriented, true? I'm sure there's a delicate balance between thoroughly analyzing a case and thinking about the structures, why's, etc of a subject. Can you give some general advice on the types of things you think about/emphasize when getting ready for an exam? Does it all come down to seeing the forest for the trees?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess its all a matter of what you want out of law school and how you view your time spent there. I view it as a means to an end. Therefore, any work I do will towards the end of getting good grades.

If the professor tells you that there won't be any policy questions, just issue spotting, then I don't give a [censored] about how they did things in medieval england or what the rule used to before they changed it. that just confuses things. Some professors love to start with "And in the beginning God created heaven and earth" and then crawl through the centuries.

Personally, there was nothing more frustrating to me than reading a 20 page case, then realizing that the rule it was about was obsolete and the next case was the modern rule.


Honestly, most 20 page cases can be boiled down to "oh thats the knife case, sign in window does not equal offer." or something like that.

Knowing the facts of the case is only important because professors often use combinations of cases you read and variations as the test questions, but knowing the names of every cousin vying for a claim to some property isn't going to get you anywhere.


For most classes, especially civil procedure, the best way to study is come up with step by step flow charts. You can have your big voluminous outline, but then break down each issue into step by step.

Taking a civil procedure question.

You spot issue X.

Boom. Flip to page 2, and see:

Issue X:

Step 1, Step 2.

Have diverging paths for different outcomes, etc.


That is the main benefit of typing exams (besides speed) is that you can hit all the major steps, even type your outline write into the exam, then go back in and fill in the details. then if you still got some time, go back and fill in the BS, begging for extra pts. stuff.

[XXXNoahXXX]

Also,

Remi,

WTF? This ain't the Ask Jeff thread.

[remi983]

For most classes, especially civil procedure, the best way to study is come up with step by step flow charts. You can have your big voluminous outline, but then break down each issue into step by step.

Taking a civil procedure question.

You spot issue X.

Boom. Flip to page 2, and see:

Issue X:

Step 1, Step 2.

Have diverging paths for different outcomes, etc.


That is the main benefit of typing exams (besides speed) is that you can hit all the major steps, even type your outline write into the exam, then go back in and fill in the details. then if you still got some time, go back and fill in the BS, begging for extra pts. stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info Noah. I'm guessing the outline copying would map out the general dichotomies of the issues, then your details would apply to the specific facts of the question, no? Is the outline inputing trick a well-known exam tactic? If so, how did you differentiate yourself from other test-takers. Does writting well make a big difference? Again, thanks for any knowledge you share. I'm exactly 1 month away from my first class, so all advice is appreciated.

[remi983]

[ QUOTE ]
Also,

Remi,

WTF? This ain't the Ask Jeff thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, don't want to waste $25. LOL

[Scotty.]

I was going to start my own thread asking about law school, but people here seem to have a good idea of whats going on.

Here is my situation: I am going into my 4th year of undergrad at UBC (British Columbia, Canada). I don't know my actual GPA, but grades are typically 80-82% over the past 3 years (anywhere from 70%-95% for specific courses, and I have a lot of extra credits, so it would go up if I get to drop my lower ones). I'm taking a Bachelor of Commerce with a concentration in Real Estate. I took the LSAT in June and got 165 (92nd). All my studying was reading a book and taking 2 practise tests, and I'm quite convinced I could get 170+ if I wanted to put real effort into studying and took it again. My extra curriculars are reasonable, and I've had summer work every year except for one where I played poker. I currently work for a lawyer - he isn't actually practising law though, and I am doing real estate related work for him.

Originally I planned just to go back to UBC for law, butI have received a few emails from different law schools from the States (Richmond and Minnesota to name a couple), and that got me thinking. It would be really cool to experience a new place, especially somewhere with decent weather in the winter. What kind of schools would I be able to get into with my kinda stats? How about if I retook the LSATs?

It would be MUCH cheaper to attend UBC. Tuition there would be $9000 for the year. I would be an international student anywhere in the states. The money isn't a huge concern, but it does matter.

Basically I'm just looking for any sort of advice on what, in your guys' opinions, would I enjoy most? Where could I reasonably expect to get accepted? What makes the most sense for my future?

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to start my own thread asking about law school, but people here seem to have a good idea of whats going on.

Here is my situation: I am going into my 4th year of undergrad at UBC (British Columbia, Canada). I don't know my actual GPA, but grades are typically 80-82% over the past 3 years (anywhere from 70%-95% for specific courses, and I have a lot of extra credits, so it would go up if I get to drop my lower ones). I'm taking a Bachelor of Commerce with a concentration in Real Estate. I took the LSAT in June and got 165 (92nd). All my studying was reading a book and taking 2 practise tests, and I'm quite convinced I could get 170+ if I wanted to put real effort into studying and took it again. My extra curriculars are reasonable, and I've had summer work every year except for one where I played poker. I currently work for a lawyer - he isn't actually practising law though, and I am doing real estate related work for him.

Originally I planned just to go back to UBC for law, butI have received a few emails from different law schools from the States (Richmond and Minnesota to name a couple), and that got me thinking. It would be really cool to experience a new place, especially somewhere with decent weather in the winter. What kind of schools would I be able to get into with my kinda stats? How about if I retook the LSATs?

It would be MUCH cheaper to attend UBC. Tuition there would be $9000 for the year. I would be an international student anywhere in the states. The money isn't a huge concern, but it does matter.

Basically I'm just looking for any sort of advice on what, in your guys' opinions, would I enjoy most? Where could I reasonably expect to get accepted? What makes the most sense for my future?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know 2+2er TeddyFBI is Canadian and went to law school (he dropped out), maybe PM him, although he refers to law as "soul-sucking" so take it with a grain of salt.



User NeonClaws is currently going to U. of British Columbia Law School.


There's more, try searching.

As for the other part of your post, yes, if you really can get in the 170s then retake the LSAT. I'm not sure how Canadian applicants are received or how grades translate, but I know that:

Me: 3.5 GPA, 172 LSAT, tons of extracurriculars, work, etc.
College Roommate: 3.5 GPA, 160 LSAT, tons of extracurriculars, work, etc.

Me: Columbia, Georgetown, BC $$$, Notre Dame $$$, etc.
College Roommate: Cardoza, UCONN, Brooklyn, Fordham PT waitlist.


This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

Schools are all about boosting their USNEWS rankings and average LSAT, so two pts above their avg >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>two pts. below.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't most schools take the average, though?

I had been scoring an average of 172 on my timed practice tests, but ended up with 167 (my second worst score EVER!) on the actual exam. However, I decided not to retake it because I felt like I couldn't expect anything better than my average practice score, which wouldn't boost my score more than a couple points. It didn't seem like it would help me much.

So even if he scored a 170 the second time around, he'd still be at a 167 or or 168 average. Are those extra points really that valuable?

-McGee

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't most schools take the average, though?

I had been scoring an average of 172 on my timed practice tests, but ended up with 167 (my second worst score EVER!) on the actual exam. However, I decided not to retake it because I felt like I couldn't expect anything better than my average practice score, which wouldn't boost my score more than a couple points. It didn't seem like it would help me much.

So even if he scored a 170 the second time around, he'd still be at a 167 or or 168 average. Are those extra points really that valuable?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your goals, etc. A lot of schools take average, but the trend is more and more to take the higher.

Maybe 5+, not so much 3 pts. my range might have been a bit low.

Also, schools see all scores regardless, so if you had a 167 (great score) and you took it again, it demonstrates that you strive towards excellence, and getting a 172+ would demonstrate that.

Maybe it isn't worth it to delay a year, but if you took it in June and got a 167 and think you can get a 172+ in September, by all means, do it.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest suggestion in terms of getting a good effortutcome ratio is to realize why you are studying and doing work. This is 1L, you are not here to learn some abstract material. You are in direct competition with your classmates to see who can get the best grades. Believe it or not, the knowledge will come.

Don't do work to prepare for classes, do work to prepare for tests. Sometimes these overlap 100%, but often they do not. Who cares if you look like a shining star in class, its all about that final at the end of the year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just quoting this because it's great advice.

I also did pretty well at law school doing almost no work, and all I'd add is to spend a few weeks trying lots of things to figure out what works for you. I didn't make outlines or have a study group because I found it unhelpful. Don't waste time on things that don't help you learn.