some basic but fundamentally important preflop questions 2-4nl 6 max

[john kane]

i should of re-phrased it that 'its obvious how to maximise the successfulness of your cbet' i.e. your opponent, the flop etc.

i can only re-iterate poker is a game of capitalising on other mistakes, so why are you not wanting to isolate those who limp in on average with hands worse than 9Ko, especially given you have position. is it becuase you think they have on average better than 9Ko?

and im not saying that i would commit to a cbet. i would only do it if it were the best option given the factors mentioned above.

[Triumph36]

It's not like they're folding aces, either - if one of them limped, you have a point. But since it's two limpers, while both players on average play worse than K9, I'd say their average hand is probably right around or a little better than K9. This means that against two players your hand will often not be ahead pre-flop.

Here's a question that should be illuminating - an ace flops. It's checked to you. Are you betting?

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
i can only re-iterate poker is a game of capitalising on other mistakes, so why are you not wanting to isolate those who limp in on average with hands worse than 9Ko, especially given you have position. is it becuase you think they have on average better than 9Ko?


[/ QUOTE ]

You think that on *average* their hand is worse than K9o? If that is true, it's *very slightly* worse than K9, and it certainly could have K9 dominated. Against players who always want to see a flop, but then are prone to fold post-flop if they don't hit it pretty well, fine, but against players who are coming with you with any piece, I just don't see the edge that you do here (unless perhaps you take the image you gain against the good players/nits by showing down K9o after raising 2 limpers with it - I know *I'd* make a note).

[ QUOTE ]
and im not saying that i would commit to a cbet. i would only do it if it were the best option given the factors mentioned above.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so you'd only continuation bet if it were a good idea. Solid plan. What does that mean? Are you continuation betting a raggy A-high flop? Undercards? A9x? I mean you pretty much have to Cbet if you flop top pair, but most of the time you aren't going to, and Cbetting k-high into 2 loose/passive players (assuming they both call) has got to be -EV.

Now, if the players in question liked to limp a lot of hands, but you had often seen one or both of them folding to a 5-6BB raise after limping, or you had seen them often call preflop raises and muck it on the flop, I can see your line being decent (if still thin), but against the players I think you are describing, I think you are setting yourself up to lose a 40-60BB pot on the river when he can't lay down 2nd pair.

[fslexcduck]

sorry guys, i'm away travelling and thus not at my computer every second, so i'm late responding in this thread. in re: limping on the button... J9o isn't a great hand in general, but it is good enough to play. if you raise it, you might have to worry about all sorts of kicker problems when you get action.

limping on the button isn't such a bad thing... when J9o hits a straight you might still get paid a nice amount from two pair, and often (this is key to limping on the button) you can just pick up the pot on the flop or turn when everyone checks to you.

[Bookworm]

Im bumping this as my standard is very different here
I play 50NL to 200NL but i don´t think it matters much.

1. I raise this always vs 2 loose nottogreat players. Most of the time i´ll take this down preflop without a fight and i dont mind being in position with 1-2 players here.

2. Im raising this one also almost always. expecting the nit to have a small pp or a nice sc like 78-JT and to take it down with a cb most of the time.
In both 1 and 2 my biggist concern are aggro players behind me and in the blinds who 3bet lightly.

3. checking yes - actually openfolding here might be better for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

4. When someone limps im attacking - without a history with villian im raising here. Folding and calling might be ok, again the blinds will influate my decision.

5. Reraising or folding here. Almost never calling here - leak?

[thomaz]

[ QUOTE ]
fold fold check call call.

reasoning: reverse implied odds, position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed... although it also depends on your image and aggression. I might raise the 9J if I'm pushing the action, and try to take it with a cb if opportunity arises but obviously very prepared to lay it down.

I don't like K9 as a starting hand... If anyone else stays in if you hit either top pair you can't be too happy with your hand and can't really stand a bet or raise.

And be prepared to lay down A10 if an Ace hits... there's a strong argument for folding in the first place (although I'd probably call and often regret it} if you won't be happy unless you hit a miracle flop against a seemingly tight player. Also depends on whether he raises a lot on the co/btn.