4-flushed on the turn with no trump, left with a river decision

[Aaron W.]

Here's an interesting spot. I'll give you a few hands that I've seen villain play, and then let's see what the river play would be:

Hand #1: (MP) Refused to bet top pair.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (4 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP has As 5s (one pair, aces).
Button has 6c 4c (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: MP wins 6 BB. </font>

Hand #2: (SB) Super-loose limp-call from SB

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

River: (3 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 3 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Qd 2c (one pair, queens).
BB has Ad Ts (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins 3 BB. </font>

Hand #3: (BB) Flop cold-call with bottom pair

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Button folds.

River: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 2c Kc (one pair, kings).
BB has 7s 5h (one pair, fives).
Outcome: SB wins 8 BB. </font>

===================

Given these hands as your background, do you value bet the river, or check and hope it gets checked through?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...

====

What if hero had KJ no flush?

[MrWookie]

I'm not sold on the turn bet, actually, and I like c/f on the river.

[milesdyson]

Check folding the turn is easily the best play here IMO. And then, yeah, I check fold the river too.

[Aaron W.]

On the turn, I was going to bet-fold. I don't care so much that CO is calling along, but SB had me worried. It's an easy fold to a check-raise, and if he calls I'm beat. It's one last bet going into the pot against two players.

But when SB folded, I looked at the river as a potential value bet. If I check, I must check-fold because he's shown no capacity for bluffing at all. However, he's calling with a crapload of hands. Qx, 7x, maybe even small pocket pairs. There are a lot of weak diamond hands that he could be holding, which worries me.

I thought for about 5 seconds and decided to just fire one more and see what he does (after all, I intend to value bet a lot against him -- I'd like to see what he can call with). He calls with 33 no flush and I take the pot. I think it's a super-thin value bet. KJ would make a better value bet, obviously.

[Shillx]

Are you taking lessons from James.? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you taking lessons from James.? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to explain this one to me...