Standard Parent Question

[entertainme]

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EDIT: entertainme, you hit it on the head with "it's people dependent." Just because you became more mature with your children does not imply that it will have that effect on others. Try to remember that. Having kids is not the key to understanding parenting and life that you almost imply.

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True. I fell into the experience/generalization trap myself. I've always said we need more adults raising kids. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[bogey1]

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I am just about to turn 30 in one year, so yeah, I probably have a view-point that you don't have:
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For the most part, people that have children in their 20s cannot afford to have children, have dreams that are not achieved, and these dreams are unachievable once the kids are in their lives.
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Dave, do you have kids? I'm wondering on the viewpoint you're coming from.

Much of what you said is intellectually true. Kids are expensive and wearing. Being older and having a good job means a lot. It's hard not to agree, it all makes sense.

However... I think there's something deeper and that matters more. I'd like to say "love", but that's a simplification. The only thing I can give is an example, of myself.

My father and mother had me at 18. I was, well, not an accident, but not planned either. They were broke, young, and unready. But I was loved, deeply. And my parents had the support of their parents (I was the first grandchild), which makes up for a lot.

My mother had to quit school and get a job. And yes, my parents got divorced when I was very young. And we were almost always poor. Hand me down, free lunch program poor. But, here's some unexpectedly good things that came out of it:

- Young parents meant smaller generation gap. I have always got along well with my parents.

- Young parents meant you grew to know your grandparents just after their prime. As people, vibrant and alive, not retired and old.

- My father was my very best friend up until he died. We shared so much in common given our ages. When he talked of mistakes and regrets and gave me advice, I really understood because I knew he'd been there.

- Self reliance. It's not that I had to grow up quickly, but that I knew my mom wasn't super human. I wanted to help. I learned to be independent in a good way. Obviously, this could have backfired badly if she'd been a hopeless person.

I came from a strong family, full of strong and smart people. In that environment, as hard as I'm sure it all was, I came out really well. My mother went back to school late in life and is simply amazing at her job, one of the best in the state now.

There's such a span of generations at family occasions it's really cool. Even nearing 40 myself, my oldest grandparent is only in her early 80s and sharp of mind.

I get everything Dave says and it's hard, even for me, to find a fault in the reasoning. Still though, I think there's more to what makes a good parent. My best friend grew up much like me. His family wasn't as close as mine, but he grew up independent and self-reliant. He's a great guy, successful in his world, very smart.

To some extent, we (as a society) seem to view parenthood as something you should qualify for based on age and income. Those are tangible and some problems can be traced to their lack. It's hard to argue with studies that show that children of the poor and young do worse in general.

And though its nebulous and just my own biased background, I think a truly good parent, or good life for a child, really has little to do with money once you get past the poverty line. It has to do with family, love, being there for each other. If you're born into that, no matter how young your parents, you have the roots for success in life.

[Conspire]

I agree with bogey in saying that being dedicated and strong willed goes a long way. Im not saying im not focused and dedicated, but I know in my mind that I am not ready to dive so deep, and I am contempt with my choices. I wouldnt want to become a burdon to my parents and need them to be there to take care of me and my family. Even though they would obviously help me, I like being independent and make +ev long term decisions.

[Blarg]

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I'm sorry, you guys are really losing me with your generalizations. You'd be amazed at how much maturity having a child before thirty brings to the party. FWIW my kids never lived in an apartment either. NTTAWWT.

IMO it's much more people dependent than age dependent. Also, if you haven't have kids, you really have no idea how it changes your life.

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All that depends quite mightily too. It's pretty easy to have a kid just because you're too much of a dope to go to the drugstore, or because you think you "should" or whatever. Adding a baby to an immature person doesn't necessarily make them any more mature.

I have seen it make some people imagine they are far more mature than they really are, though, and claim it. New mothers can be amazingly smug and think that they have somehow been granted maturity and centrality to the universe's goings-on by popping out a larva. At best, having a child gives you many opportunities to grow up. But not everybody takes them, and not everybody can even see them. Or would value them if they could.

Frankly, I think a big problem with childrearing is that so many people think all it requires is having the baby, and you're automatically a good parent and worthwhile person after that. Being a lousy parent is dirt-common, and not just among dirt.

[daveT]

Bogey, that is a good post.

I think the biggest difference here is related to the location part of my prior post. This time, we are speaking of a time gap. 40 years ago, it would be easier to find a decent factory job or something to support your family. The standard of living was higher, and I imagine that people were more willing to give a young father a chance. If these are not true, then I appreciate a correction. I am simply stating that we are talking about different times.

I do not have kids. I grew up highly impoverished, and I end my tale there. It is because of my own upbringing that I know that I am not ready for children. I was not raised to think that every thing works out in the wash, and I will never be convinced of that attitude (see how stupid I am?). That is my perspective in a nut-shell.

As a general rule, I think along the same lines as you. I obviously have a different perspective on my parents, but that is not the over-all point of my perspective.

What I find frightening, is that some people seem to have children, get marriage, and make other bad decisions to force a change in their life.

[entertainme]

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New mothers can be amazingly smug and think that they have somehow been granted maturity and centrality to the universe's goings-on by popping out a larva.

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Do you ever have anything good to say about women, besides in regards to their looks? Every time women and specifically children come up you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder.

[AbreuTime]

Not to pile on DaveT, but I tend to agree with the criticisms of your post that uses generalizations and average statistics. Here's a couple points that you may not have considered:

1) You say that you have matured greatly at 30. I dont dispute that (obviously), nor do I dispute your divorce stats. However, divorce stats tell the story of the average person, not whether a given person is better off marrying or not marrying. This a big difference (there is no controlled test when 2 people decide to get married). What I am getting at is that people that wait to marry at 30+ are a different population, one which may be more likely to marry for longer period of time (ie. they know what they want, and had to wait for some time before finding it). I believe that some people are more likely to have lasting marriages, and that these people are more likely to marry later. Notice I'm not disagreeing with your assertions, just disagreeing with your (unstated)logical conclusion (that 2 people in love should wait til 30 before marrying).

2) Some people have dreams that involve children. Some people primarily have financial dreams. Children don't hinder the first dream, and many consider the hindrance of the 2nd dream worthwhile.

3) Autism rates go up drastically as the mother passes 30. Healthy babies are more likely if you have your kids earlier.

4) 50-Year-old Dave will look back at 30-year-old Dave and think he knows much more about "life." That's natural, and based on life experiences. This doesnt mean that 30 YO Dave is not prepared for kids. In my opinion, 30 YO Dave would gain much wisdom when he has kids.

5) How much "sexual experience" is required for a healthy marriage? Sexual compatibility is important, but you imply that sleeping with many partners is more desirable for a healthy marriage. I disagree, and think that sexual compatibility is enough.

6.
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At some point, you will realize that the world is too big for you to attain all of your dreams and for you to understand what things means. A child is only going to hinder that growth.... So no, you shouldn't have kids before you are 30, IMO, because your ability to create the best possible child-hood is hindered dramatically, especially if you have kids at 25 and want to stretch yourself to higher achievement at 29.

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I "shouldnt" have kids before 30 because I have less money at 30 than 25, I may want to chase dreams at 29 and kids will hinder that, and I won't realize that I won't attain all my dreams if I have a kid?

[bogey1]

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40 years ago, it would be easier to find a decent factory job or something to support your family. The standard of living was higher, and I imagine that people were more willing to give a young father a chance.

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This is certainly true and not something I'd thought about. I'm reticent though to restrict birthing rights essentially based on class. Not to mention what that implies about whether most of the rest of the world, which has a lower standard of living than the US, should have children...

That's all sort of outside of the OP's original point though (and I'm as guilty as any for taking it there). Maybe an interesting post for a new thread?

[Kimbell175113]

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New mothers can be amazingly smug and think that they have somehow been granted maturity and centrality to the universe's goings-on by popping out a larva.

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This is very true, and I have been reading this thread trying to think of a way to explain my thoughts about this. On this topic, no one is impartial, no one can claim to be unaffected by culture and age and most of all instinct. Of course it's even more true with new parents, and I don't think it's an attack on them to say so.

Theory: There are young people, there are adults who had kids, and there adults who did not have kids. Conspire and I understand the first group. Entertainme understands the first two, and Blarg understands the first and third. But no one ever understands all three. If these choices really are as emotional and life-changing as people say, then you'll never know what it'd be like had you chosen to go the other way.

[MiloMinderbinder]

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My views on life are always changing, but having my parents say that I should do something just makes me want to do the opposite.

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I wish they would tell you to not die of AIDS in the next week.

Or in other words: If you are still so childish to have this attitude, then you probably shouldn't be breeding anytime soon anyway.