Top two gets bet hard into

[BobboFitos]

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he either has a set or a badly played combo draw. i really doubt he ever shows up with complete air, maybe 88 or something v rarely. i'd call and probably call most blank rivs.

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lucky you're normally spot on and a very good poster, but i need to disagree with you here. if we can label villain as draw or set - nothoing in the middle (like 1 pair or air) then calling both streets is bad. reason is - you're not charging the draw on the turn nor are you getting away from the set.

on the river i assume you're folding to a heart, and auto calling w/ boat. but it means on the blanks and he bets again in order to call (since he never has air) its that set or missed flush draw (or combo draw, i guess)

id pretty much shove and not think twice - if villain could ever have air (so bluff % goes up) then calling and calling makes sense. here the value lays on the turn

[BobboFitos]

BTW, what doyou guys do with 88 then? its important given the assumptions made that 88 = KQ.

[PoppinFresh]

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BTW, what doyou guys do with 88 then? its important given the assumptions made that 88 = KQ.

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no way, KQ has tons more equity vs. draws than 88 and 2 more outs vs. a set

[ninjia3x]

How do you think vilian plays AQ here? flop lead is standard, do you expect him to check on a 2 tone flop? I really don't see why he couldn't fire again a good percent of the time. I'd expect him to be pretty agro with those stats.

[wdead]

how is this not a textbook shove?

edit: he could easily put u on a pair not KK, AA, or QQ

reedited: which brings us to bobbos point

[BobboFitos]

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BTW, what doyou guys do with 88 then? its important given the assumptions made that 88 = KQ.

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no way, KQ has tons more equity vs. draws than 88 and 2 more outs vs. a set

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firstoff, I mean for the river

secondoff, no, you're wrong. on the flop 88 has more outs vs a set - and in terms of value vs draws, NFD is roughly the same vs both. there are no gut+flushes, so i guess if he has just a raggedy flush draw which hasovers > 8 is where you have mroe equity with KQ.

thirdoff, on the turn if its a draw or its a set only difference is 2 more outs with KQ. honestly. and if he folds a draw to a push, then its possible a pushw/ ATC is profitable. reason is because KQ is basically a semibluff; betting he has a draw, and if he doesnt, you have 4 outs.

relative strength values tailored around villains hand range here.

obviously vs fish and other players w/ wider range KQ is substantially stornger then 88 on the flop and turn (and river!) but in this example they are the same.

[fishpole_]

call seems week, im also curious why we would wanna do this. Dont we loose alot value against flush? He really have 77,22 enough here?

[luckychewy]

wow bobbo totally pwned this thread, i stand corrected [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

[Bigmoney]

I shoved the turn and he called with 22. River K.

OHHHHHJJJ!!!KKDKLPOEOE!!??&&77^6%GGGG!!

[Bill King]

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I shoved the turn and he called with 22. River K.

OHHHHHJJJ!!!KKDKLPOEOE!!??&&77^6%GGGG!!

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well we knew that was happening.. duhhhh