The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB

[dmoney]

Preflop: I think raising to 6.50 is a bit better here because you are oop. But 6is the low end of fine for a raise.

Flop: I would occasionally (10-15%) check A set of aces, or AT. I probably bet set of 3s or Ts as well as my Big aces. I would also probably check a weak ace but i'd rarely get here with a weak ace.

I like the bet 9-11$ depending on how often he calls C-Bets and basically give up if called. There is so few hands you are beating at the moment. QQ-KK will call you on these flops occasionally so even if you think he is weak (he might still be ahead) Betting won't get him to fold any hand by the turn once he calls flop.

[genius55]

raise more preflop, since JJ is hard to play on alot of flops you might as well make a more serious bet there to at least $7.

postflop is a zoo. you can't really check call because you are giving free cards to random hands

you can't really check fold because his range is wide.

basically u have to go like 2/3 and see how he reacts?

does that sound about right?

[carnivalhobo]

Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.


About this cbet amount business:

Matrix: Betting more than 1/2 pot is most certainly not a leak. Jamming the pot button every time is probably a leak, but typically with 100bb stacks a slightly larger than 1/2 pot bet is better. WHY?

V opens to 3.5bb, Hero makes it 12bb.

V calls, flop XXX (Pot is 25bb) Hero bets? if we bet 12.5bb here you end up with 75bb left and the pot is 50bb on the turn (minus rake). If we bet 19bb here we have 69bb left and the pot is 60bb on the turn. This makes the turn shove a lot closer to pot which IME is better for a variety of reasons. I think at uNL when you are 3betting a tight range and you will often have the best hand on the flop, the line that lets you stack people easiest post flop is better in general. If you were 3betting wider, and wanted more room to do fun stuff postflop, then sure, maybe small 3bets and small cbets would be better. Or you can flat pre and play even more games [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[DaycareInferno]

i use a pretty simple rule when it comes to these situations where you have some showdown value, but no great shakes. do i want to call 2 bets with my hand? if i don't want to call 2 bets, then i'm leading out. if i want to call 2 bets, then i'm sticking to it. c/c followed by c/f will cost you a lot of money, so normally with these kind of hands, you should be leading out when you're oop. same thing when you're in position, but you should check behind more often in position, because you'll face two bets from weaker hands trying to push you off KK-JJ more often, and you can't face a third bet.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not 3b JJ is fine, it all depends on his calling range. If JJ is ahead of that, then 3b away, if it isn't then I'd call.


Making the hand easier is not our goal here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unknown Soldier, what do you put villains CO range on ?

[/ QUOTE ]

no history? weighted towards TT-QQ/AQ+. You are ahead of that range, so I would 3b JJ. That's my default cut-off hand (calling TT). If he raised utg, i'd flat because you look alot stronger, if you 3b his range should be tighter.

[yegon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- we are OOP
- there are 3 overcards that will make our life hard if any of them flops
- the pot is big enough to try to win it preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is a made hand with SD value - we want to get it to SD if we can.

If you are just raising to try and win the hand preflop then what cards you happen to have don't matter in the slightest and you are effectively turning your hand into 72o.

Turning JJ into 72o is wastng a good hand cos JJ can flop a set and will sometimes make a solid Overpair - I *want* to see a flop with JJ I *don't want* to build a big pot OOP with a marginal hand like JJ.

I don't always flat here I do 3bet JJ here and there but when I do I realise that I am sacrficing a little short term equity for shania.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's possible to say that calling is better than 3betting in this situation. Both have merit and the differences are not easily quantifiable.

If you call you give up value against a lot of worse hands from his range that simply take the pot away if the flop is unfavorable for you even though they might have missed.

If you 3bet you loose value from the worse hands that would bet on flops favorable for you even though they are behind.

If you can combine all this you could come up with a decision if it's better to call or 3bet but I don't think it can be done, there are too many variables.

Everyone offers their view on what is better based on their perception. But until we have mathematical proof we do not really know which one is better. I'd guess the EV difference is not that big if we have so many people in both camps. I also think that it's much more important what you do post flop rather than pre - that is the reason why this topic started.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of prelop 3betting at microstakes with hands like JJ mostly becuse villains call way too much with crap hands and I think that if we keep the pot manageable we can get to SD with our JJ and win a lot of pots with it. Vs stuff like AT/KT that pairs the Ten for TPGK. If we build a big pot it makes it very easy for villain to put us under more pressure with our unimproved MP as there are less chips left to bet - and I think often the hands we are ahead of fold in large pots so if we do take it to the felt for a stack then more often than not we lose the SD unimproved.

I'd *much* prefer to 3bet a suited 1 gapper than a middling pair cos most of the time after the flop my suited connector is air whereas with JJ/TT sometimes I won't improve but will still have the best hand get to SD and drag a small/medium pot.

Obv if I think villain calls a 3bet preflop with a hand I am ahead of I 3bet almost all the time.

As games get more aggro as you move up then I think 3betting preflop is the standard line as CO's open range gets a little wider and his 3bet calling range gets lots wider - I don't think at a micro table that a meowchow TAG calls our 3bet with many hands we are ahead of and it's a little better to flat pre. Also even tho we are OOP villains put nothing like as much pressure on an OOP opponent as they should at micro tables, IME a bunch of bad mcTAGs tend to CB flop, CB turn and check behind the river when they have marginal hands - I think that when you combine that fact (we will often get to SD without having to get our whole stack in ) with the looser postflop play thats prevalent at microtables (i.e. villains will felt TPGK on a ten high flop and similar hands) then that amount of EV that JJ has is what we are sacrificing when we 3bet preflop with it and mostly turn our hand into a bluff.

This is why I believe that at micro tables "standard" play is to flat call here preflop which I do ~70% of the time and 3bet the other 30%.

[ QUOTE ]

About this cbet amount business:

Matrix: Betting more than 1/2 pot is most certainly not a leak. Jamming the pot button every time is probably a leak, but typically with 100bb stacks a slightly larger than 1/2 pot bet is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point - I think I was overstating my case a little - tho I do think that always betting 3/4 pot in a reraised pot is a bit of a leak with 100BB stacks. In the OP hand I advocated $7 which is a little over halfpot - typically at a 50NL table I halve the potsize and then round up to the nearest dollar, I think I will nudge my betsizing here up a little in the future.

[anthb7210p]

You always have to lead this flop if your going to 3bet. If you check it villan will steal with ATC - its so expoitable. If you get raised or turn blanks only then can u fold / checkfold. This you much less readable and you will def get paid off on your AA AK's more often. Also, either calling preflop or 3betting are both OK.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I only glanced over what gelford said but I basically agree with him.

I don't like check/calling the flop. I would either just bet or check/fold.

[orange]

I typically bet. As i would many hands here.