A couple QQuestions

SomethingClever · #1 03-11-2007, 10:47 PM

How do you like these?

1 Villain is 58/31/1.7. Plan is to get it all in on safe flops. Yeah?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($8.65)
Button ($97.85)
SB ($99)
Hero ($104)
UTG ($86)
MP ($152.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero raises to $14, MP raises to $30, Hero calls $16.

Flop: ($60.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $40, Hero raises to $74...

2 Preflop shoveaments good given stack size?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($97)
UTG ($159.90)
MP ($64.85)
Hero ($98.50)
Button ($31.60)
SB ($71.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $5, Hero raises to $15, 3 folds, MP raises to $64.85, Hero calls $49.85.

the machine · #2 03-11-2007, 10:49 PM

1 hell yeah. its about as good as it can be. AA or KK ohh well pay the donkey off and get it abck later.

2 hell yeah. i dont thik id fold QQ for 50 BBs just about ever. is it same villain or different one?

and you are pretty clever

carrotsnake · #3 03-11-2007, 11:30 PM

1) Bad plan, because against someone with a /31, you have on idea what a safe flop is. Your gonna fold the winner to often if you just fold an any a/k flop. Shove pre or just never fold post.

2)Fine

NoahSD · #4 03-11-2007, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Bad plan, because against someone with a /31, you have on idea what a safe flop is. Your gonna fold the winner to often if you just fold an any a/k flop. Shove pre or just never fold post.

2)Fine

[/ QUOTE ]

ImsaKidd · #5 03-11-2007, 11:58 PM

Given stats in 1 i think you should like min5b.

2 is obv fine.

HighEV · #6 03-11-2007, 11:58 PM

Lots of interesting stuff to talk about here! I don't think we have nearly enough information to deal with for any definitive response. Here's what I have to say, though:

Hand #1: One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to classify players solely based on their VPIP/PFR/AF numbers. These numbers certainly have significance; however, they obscure a lot of nuances. For example, my PFR in SHNL games is about 25%, but if you break down my PFR by position, my PFR in EP is about 10%, and my PFR in late position is around 30%-40%. Furthermore, my reraising distribution is very tight against most opponents.

In this case, what will the villian be REreraising with? Some players with a PFR of 31% NEVER reraise (nevermind REreraise) unless they have AA or maybe KK.

What does YOUR reraise from the BB mean? How does your opponent see you? Sometimes, this reraise out of position is horrible because you've announced exactly what you have. In fact, against better players, I usually elect to call here if the pot will be heads-up so that I don't have to play a big pot OOP in what could be a very tricky situation.

Remember...don't assume that your LAGGY opponent is an idiot..."loose" does not mean "bad" and "tight" does not mean "good." In fact, calculating LAGGY players are usually the best SHNL players.

With all of that having been said, if this guy is a smart LAG, then I don't like your line of play. If he's mindlessly aggressive, then you probably played it the best way possible.

Hand #2: What do we know about this player? Has he reraised much? What's your table image? Your decision here is highly opponent-dependent.

If I had to generalize across the average of all players I've ever played against, this is a clear fold. Calling 50BB with QQ from a rereraise is making an unnecessary donation to most players. KK is borderline.

AllYouWantToBe · #7 03-12-2007, 12:14 AM

wow, that was intense, but well stated.

fwiw, both hands look grrrreat
that was a pretty something clever title also.

carrotsnake · #8 03-12-2007, 12:20 AM

I think aejones would fall in love with you

RiDiK · #9 03-12-2007, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of interesting stuff to talk about here! I don't think we have nearly enough information to deal with for any definitive response. Here's what I have to say, though:

Hand #1: One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to classify players solely based on their VPIP/PFR/AF numbers. These numbers certainly have significance; however, they obscure a lot of nuances. For example, my PFR in SHNL games is about 25%, but if you break down my PFR by position, my PFR in EP is about 10%, and my PFR in late position is around 30%-40%. Furthermore, my reraising distribution is very tight against most opponents.

In this case, what will the villian be REreraising with? Some players with a PFR of 31% NEVER reraise (nevermind REreraise) unless they have AA or maybe KK.

What does YOUR reraise from the BB mean? How does your opponent see you? Sometimes, this reraise out of position is horrible because you've announced exactly what you have. In fact, against better players, I usually elect to call here if the pot will be heads-up so that I don't have to play a big pot OOP in what could be a very tricky situation.

Remember...don't assume that your LAGGY opponent is an idiot..."loose" does not mean "bad" and "tight" does not mean "good." In fact, calculating LAGGY players are usually the best SHNL players.

With all of that having been said, if this guy is a smart LAG, then I don't like your line of play. If he's mindlessly aggressive, then you probably played it the best way possible.

Hand #2: What do we know about this player? Has he reraised much? What's your table image? Your decision here is highly opponent-dependent.

If I had to generalize across the average of all players I've ever played against, this is a clear fold. Calling 50BB with QQ from a rereraise is making an unnecessary donation to most players. KK is borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

your analysis of hand 1 is vv good

i don't agree w/ hand 2 analysis at all though. if villain does this w/ KK+, AKs, AKo it's relatively close but it's a call. it is very player dependent but usually the read makes it a much easier call than vice versa. there are certainly some players out there that it is a fold but you usually never have that good of a read on random ppl w/ 50 bbs. also, i have never encountered a situation where KK was borderline for 50 bbs.

HighEV · #10 03-12-2007, 12:43 AM

RiDiK, I agree with your philosophy for sure. Ultimately, the EV of the call is entirely dependent on the opponent's distribution, and that's what our disagreement is really about. We can probably start a huge debate about the player's distribution. I don't necessarily want to start a fire, but here are my thoughts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Some players will have hands like JJ, TT, and AK in their distributions, but I think that QQ is the absolute worst hand that typical players make this move with in online cash games these days. A few years ago on Party Poker, the call with QQ would have been automatic!

May Your EV Always Be Positive!

Tony Guerrera