This is why I'm for the death penalty.

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Well my reasoning in this thread have mainly been based on whether or not I find the death penalty morally acceptable, which I do.

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Fair enough.

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I don´t think the "really sure" will be relevant, as I dont think we should put people in prison at all if we are just "really sure".

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But I think people do go to prison on flimsy evidence and emotional appeals. Don't you?

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I dont think it invites disaster either, as the US has had the death penalty for 3 decades now, and only about 1000 have been executed, and I dont think anyone has found it likely that anyone of those might have been innocent.

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Do you know? Do you have any idea if anyone is even bothering to check? I don't. But I'm scared to hell of what an angry jury will do given a chance.

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Do you feel that the current situation in the US is a disaster when it comes to the death penalty and how it is applied?

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For sure. Millions of dollars of tax payer money to get...what exactly? Emotional closure for some victim's family? Revenge? What?

[tame_deuces]

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The principle is exactly the same, and Im pretty sure you know it too.

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Huh? Now I don't even know what we are talking about anymore. I certainly don't think criminal punishment is about revenge, that is a principle most civilized societies left behind hundreds of years ago. Though I'm sure many get their kicks out of believing it is and like it.

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I was talking about the principle that the two sentences was based upon, which you argued were different. If you saw the text that I had written that was under that line that you chose to quote you would see that I had clarified my view on punishment/revenge, so Im quite surprised that you missed it. But Im sure you didn´t ignore it on purpose...

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Great. I oppose the death penalty as a form punishment because in a modern society it has high cost of error (ethically), enormous costs and little utility. I oppose most long prison sentences for the same reasons.

And then you can debate against that if you wish, and how you can avoid revenge casting a fairly heavy shadow on the death penalty arguments.

[Bedreviter]

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I already gave my 3 arguments against the death penalty. Consider my opposition a combination of those.

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Im in favor of the death penalty (for some crimes) when the guilt is proven without any doubt. DNA, videotape, number of reliable witnesses, accurate confession and such is in place.

I dont feel that prison is a good alternative in any cases where guilt is not proven without any doubt, I rather see the suspect going free until the case is strong enough for a trial, or him going free. I dont want anyone to be sent to prison on the assumption that we are very sure he did it, but cannot prove it fully, and then if we 4 years later find out we can release him and think "well, that wasnt so bad now was it?".

Think the jury and the judge also will be very careful about sentencing anyone to death without the question of guilt being proven, as they dont have the safety net of "well if we 20 years down the road find out we were wrong we can just let the poor guy out". And as the road from first being given the death penalty to the actual execution taking place is very long and involves multiple lengthy trials and appeals I find the possibility of someone innocent going through all of them and still ending up being executed as extremely small. Today with the technology and DNA and all that I believe that for someone to be innocently executed in the US is so slim its of interest to statistics-freaks only.

[slickss]

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I dont think it invites disaster either, as the US has had the death penalty for 3 decades now, and only about 1000 have been executed, and I dont think anyone has found it likely that anyone of those might have been innocent.

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You're right, but I want to post this fact:

- Around 3,350 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2007

Additionally, I already posted a link to some extremely sketchy death penalty sentences that were carried out. I disagree with you and find it extremely likely that an innocent person has already been legally executed in USA.

[slickss]

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Im in favor of the death penalty (for some crimes) when the guilt is proven without any doubt. DNA, videotape, number of reliable witnesses, accurate confession and such is in place.

I dont feel that prison is a good alternative in any cases where guilt is not proven without any doubt, I rather see the suspect going free until the case is strong enough for a trial, or him going free. I dont want anyone to be sent to prison on the assumption that we are very sure he did it, but cannot prove it fully, and then if we 4 years later find out we can release him and think "well, that wasnt so bad now was it?".

Think the jury and the judge also will be very careful about sentencing anyone to death without the question of guilt being proven, as they dont have the safety net of "well if we 20 years down the road find out we were wrong we can just let the poor guy out". And as the road from first being given the death penalty to the actual execution taking place is very long and involves multiple lengthy trials and appeals I find the possibility of someone innocent going through all of them and still ending up being executed as extremely small. Today with the technology and DNA and all that I believe that for someone to be innocently executed in the US is so slim its of interest to statistics-freaks only.

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Uhm? I don't think anybody here has argued for finding someone guilty when there is doubt.

[Bedreviter]

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But I think people do go to prison on flimsy evidence and emotional appeals. Don't you?

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Probably in some cases, but not in major trials where murder and the possibility of a death penalty is relevant. And Im confident that if one trial is screwed up or maybe even two they will find justice a long time before they are ready for the execution.

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Do you know? Do you have any idea if anyone is even bothering to check? I don't. But I'm scared to hell of what an angry jury will do given a chance.

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I remember having read (from what I at the time determined to be credible sources) that some independent groups (also those with an interest against the death penalty involved) had gone through all cases (where the suspect had been executed) that some felt were controversial, and found that there was no reason to believe that anyone had been wrongfully executed. Thats not worth much without a link or refernce to the material, but thats what I base my argument upon. And there are plenty of people out there interrested in checking these cases and helping out those on death row.

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For sure. Millions of dollars of tax payer money to get...what exactly? Emotional closure for some victim's family? Revenge? What?

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Ok, so a disaster financially, that might be true. But I was more thinking of it as a disaster as in "do you think that the system leading to execution of convicts today can be classified as a disaster?", leaving the cost out of it.

[Bedreviter]

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Uhm? I don't think anybody here has argued for finding someone guilty when there is doubt.

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Then why are we concerned about innocent people being executed?

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Then why are we concerned about innocent people being executed?

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First of all, there is something known as "beyond reasonable doubt". If you require video footage to ever sentence anybody, crime increase dramatically.

Second, it should be obvious that the person might be innocent even if there was no apparent doubt during trials.

[Bedreviter]

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Great. I oppose the death penalty as a form punishment because in a modern society it has high cost of error (ethically), enormous costs and little utility. I oppose most long prison sentences for the same reasons.

And then you can debate against that if you wish, and how you can avoid revenge casting a fairly heavy shadow on the death penalty arguments.

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Im in favor of death penalty and long prison sentences because the high cost of error of releasing known murderers that may not be as rehabilitated that we would like to think they are far exceeds the cost of having them in prison.

Im talking about my defense of the death penalty, and I assure you it has nothing to do with revenge, its what I feel is the proper solution for the society in dealing with some murderers. I believe that the judges in the trials and appeals needed before someone can be executed are level headed and therefore will avoid sentencing people to death based on pity revenge.

[Bedreviter]

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Second, it should be obvious that the person might be innocent even if there was no apparent doubt during trials.

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So prison when we are "beyond reasonable doubt", and death penalty when "there is no doubt what so ever". Videotape, DNA, confession and such sometimes makes the case 100% slam dunk, and there is no way whatsoever that anyone will think that the person is innocent.