FTP 5/10: Very passively played KK - Page 2

Niediam · #11 10-11-2007, 05:49 PM

I didn't cap preflop for deception purposes hoping it will lead to more bets going in postflop. Usually my intent is to checkraise the turn unless the flop falls in such a way that I feel villian might not bet the turn in which case I'll checkraise the flop or sometimes donk the turn.

This flop was was bad. If we assume villians range is TT+ and AK I'm actually a small dog here against his range.

The real problem with raising at some point is that I'm going to lose more when behind then make when I'm ahead. When villian has TT or JJ (and sometimes AA) I'm going to be 3bet or raised on the next street losing a total of around two bets more than when I just call down (not counting the times I spike a king). Being raised wouldn't be so bad if I could fold to a 3bet but I don't like that idea as villian could be overplaying QQ or semibluffing AK. When I'm ahead and villian has QQ we just gain only one additional bet unless he overplays his hand (again not counting times when he spikes a queen). Against AK we gain 0.8 bets or so because now now villian has a real chance of outdrawing us with a queen or an ace. As another poster pointed out there are a few more combinations of the hands that we beat than beat me uut not enough to make up for the extra bet I lose when behind.

Btw, if I had open raised from a later position I wouldn't take this line as it would be very possible that I was being isolated by hands such as KQ or AJ.

One Outer · #12 10-11-2007, 06:20 PM

Hmmm. That's interesting. I'm going to ruminate on it. I still think that you should cap pf, deception be damned. The only hand I would go and then stop pf like that is AA.

Niediam · #13 10-11-2007, 06:30 PM

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Hmmm. That's interesting. I'm going to ruminate on it. I still think that you should cap pf, deception be damned. The only hand I would go and then stop pf like that is AA.

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The only hands I ever do this with are AA and KK. It's a rather standard play though (not to say that it should be done all the time).

One Outer · #14 10-11-2007, 06:34 PM

Yeah, I'm aware of the play. I just only do it with AA because I never want to have an overcard on the board freeze my plan or my action.

I think I did a poor job of explaining my POV.

Ricks · #15 10-11-2007, 08:22 PM

I think this play has merit but when we are OOP there are too many opportunities for a bet not to go in. We usually need an aggressive opponent and we don't know if Villain is aggressive or not.

Niediam · #16 10-12-2007, 12:35 AM

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I think this play has merit but when we are OOP there are too many opportunities for a bet not to go in. We usually need an aggressive opponent and we don't know if Villain is aggressive or not.

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Odds are fairly high that any random 5/10 online player is aggressive. But even ones that are more to the passive side put in bet with hands that they 3bet with preflop.

Mitke · #17 10-12-2007, 04:30 AM

We haven't considered much on what kind of a range the Villain puts the Hero?

A TAG image UTG+2 open-raise + call preflop and then just calling two broadway rainbow flop. -> 99-JJ+?, ATs-AQs+? AJo-AKo? KQ(s)?

On the flop he'd probably muck 99 and c/r TT/JJ on the turn the latest, maybe put a bet or raise in with AJ at some point, and often keep calling with AT/AQ/AK/KQ.

There could be a small chance that the Villain would check AK on turn to induce a bluff on the river from AQ or KQs or that he'd just check behind with outs with those few times he has AQ. A check behind with AK on the river is also possible.

I don't know if it's big enough a chance to put in a donk or c/r somewhere.

James. · #18 10-12-2007, 09:11 AM

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hands that they 3bet with preflop.

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it's my experiencet that pretty often TAGs and LAGs and anyone else trying to play well tend to overplay on the button in these games.

if your range is including pp's as low as 77 or 88, and overcards as weak as ATs and AJo(and maybe worse) i think he shows up with a wider range than alot of people are giving credit for.

if he was 3betting from EP like UTG+2 or from the blinds i think we could narrow his range to TT+, AK. when he's on the button i'm widening his range to something like 99+, AJs+, AQo+ and i would probably throw KQs in.

it's conceivable he shows up with some random crap as low as 77 or as weak as JTs/KJs, etc. i wouldn't count on it(but it happens on occasion).

assuming this is true, that makes us close to a 64/36 fave and that means we need more bets to go in postflop.

Niediam · #19 10-13-2007, 02:39 PM

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hands that they 3bet with preflop.

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it's my experiencet that pretty often TAGs and LAGs and anyone else trying to play well tend to overplay on the button in these games.

if your range is including pp's as low as 77 or 88, and overcards as weak as ATs and AJo(and maybe worse) i think he shows up with a wider range than alot of people are giving credit for.

if he was 3betting from EP like UTG+2 or from the blinds i think we could narrow his range to TT+, AK. when he's on the button i'm widening his range to something like 99+, AJs+, AQo+ and i would probably throw KQs in.

it's conceivable he shows up with some random crap as low as 77 or as weak as JTs/KJs, etc. i wouldn't count on it(but it happens on occasion).

assuming this is true, that makes us close to a 64/36 fave and that means we need more bets to go in postflop.

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I definately agree with the concept. However, I have not seem much isolation 3betting myself until the original raiser is opening in late-mid position. I do play most of my limit hold'em on Stars and I don't know if there are any Full Tilt specific tendencies.

Having said that villian in this hand had JTo. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]