Small pocket pairs - open-limp in loose games?

[infinity235]

Hi,

just wondering about that... even though it's "just" a preflop question. What do you do when it's folded to you in MP2 in a FR game and you hold a small pocket pair like 33? Do you open-limp or open-raise? What if you were, MP3, CO or Button?

[MrWookie]

Folded to you in MP2, you should be thinking raise or fold in most situations except w/ extremely LP players behind you. The closer you get to the button, the more open limping gets ridiculously awful.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
open-limp in loose games

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's folded to you in MP2 or 3 then the above statement does not fit DUCY. Either that or all the looseys are on the wrong side of you.

If I am in MP2 or later anything I play is a raise. (66+ for MP2 & 3, 44+ for CO, and any PP on the Button).

If there is an average of 4+ seeing the flop and almost hardly any preflop raising then I will sometimes open-limp any PP from EP & MP1. But if it folds to me in MP2 it is time to raise it up.

[Zeldark]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. These questions are addressed to everyone. New players can think about what they already know to help with their answers, advanced players may give answers while you're still thinking [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Why is open limping so ridiculously awful?
What are the pros and cons of open limping versus open raising?
Can we ever open limp?
If so, when?

If that is too much I have a "summary" question:
Why is open raising so much better than open limping?

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is open limping so ridiculously awful?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you open raise, so many good things can happen:
<ul type="square">[*] You might steal the blinds[*] Even if you don't take down the blinds, you might fold everyone to the blinds and get position[*] even if you don't take position, you might clear out a bunch of marginal crap increasing your EV[*] You may pad the pot for a winning hand[*] You take the lead, put others on the defensive where they may fold a winning hand on a later street[*] open raising as a rule helps disguise your steal attempts with weaker hands[*] Open raising helps you with your discipline - if it's not worth raising, you'll fold it[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
Can we ever open limp?
If so, when?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure -- I open limp all the time from EP at tables I know are very loose passive and I have something like PP or Axs. If you mean open limping in late position??? I do this damn near never. You could have worse rules than never doing this.

[McNeese72]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

just wondering about that... even though it's "just" a preflop question. What do you do when it's folded to you in MP2 in a FR game and you hold a small pocket pair like 33? Do you open-limp or open-raise? What if you were, MP3, CO or Button?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like the others said your example does not represent a loose game.

If you have a loose game where a lot of people are seeing the flop, you ideally want it to be a loose passive game not a loose aggressive one.

Doc

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we ever open limp?
If so, when?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was some jason_t post from waaaay back where some very good players were advocating open-limping a few drawing hands from the button (the one jason had limped with was T8s I believe). Basically it only makes sense if you literally have zero fold equity or close to it, won't get any on the flop either, and have a hand such that it's worth trying to hit a good flop and watch them call down. In practice these circumstances practically never come up (even your average LP blinds fold sometimes, either to the pfr or your flop cbet, and especially with a hand like 33 that can win UI you are still ok if your raise causes the turn to be HU instead of 3 or 4 handed).

[Bona]

I think this subject deserves discussion. I also think the many sound reasons why open raising is the most frequent default play have been well and often presented. But I have some cases where I will open limp. It is always situational though and most frequently involves a real confidence that only a big hand will raise to my left or sometimes that I can be sure someone will raise to my left..

Open limping with some hands, for example 77, 9Ts, and a few others makes some sense to me if the players to my left are apt to call and not raise. Where in a real aggressive game I might raise the 77 or fold the 9T I will limp if the players behind are passive. Looking to my left is key to the decision.

Further, I suspect but can't confirm that if I have been playing aggressively for a while with good players, and think they have my ranges pretty well figured out, an open limp may confuse them slightly because they won't know my range for it so I can play the flop very aggressively if I want no matter what hits the board.

Open limping may not be a good default play for any specific situation but may be a good play to mix in occassionally.

EDITED TO ADD: Not to change the subject but to expand the question; I also think the dreaded "COLD CALL" after a raise has it places. Definitely not a default play but in some circumstances, after you look carefully both left and right, a cold call is probably the right answer.

[Oink]

In 6max or equivalently in a FR game from MP2 its horrible to open limp IMO. (With few exceptions like T9s UTG (6max) in a seriously loose game)

The main reason is that when you get this close to the blinds a raise will get you the blinds uncontested fairly often.

According to my PT I win the blinds outright with 20-22% probability when I open raise UTG or MP (MP2 or MP3). With an additional 20% probability I see a flop and take the pot down with a c-bet before SD. (0.25/0.5 through 10/20 6max)

Overall I win the pot without showing my hand more than 40% of the pots I open. The profits from this by far exceeds the negative effects of putting in an extra bet preflop only to play a pot OOP with a few coldcallers. (Since this will not happen very often)

When its folded to you in MP2 the game is essentially shorthanded. Taking down pots early and uncontested is hugely profitable in shorthanded play which is why you should almost always come in for a raise when opening the pot or entering after 1 limper.

Go get those blinds man!

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can we ever open limp?
If so, when?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was some jason_t post from waaaay back where some very good players were advocating open-limping a few drawing hands from the button (the one jason had limped with was T8s I believe). Basically it only makes sense if you literally have zero fold equity or close to it, won't get any on the flop either, and have a hand such that it's worth trying to hit a good flop and watch them call down. In practice these circumstances practically never come up (even your average LP blinds fold sometimes, either to the pfr or your flop cbet, and especially with a hand like 33 that can win UI you are still ok if your raise causes the turn to be HU instead of 3 or 4 handed).

[/ QUOTE ]
HPFAP talks about this, too. I used it, successfully, when I was playing the supersoft games at Prima. I'd limp in from the button with 22 or Q8s, bet if I hit and fold if they bet and I had nothing. Since the blinds were loose, there was no point in raising, and since they were passive, then I'd see at least a flop, and sometimes all five cards, for 1 SB, and if I was bet into I knew exactly where I stood.