Gin

[WhiteWolf]

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Opponent's first throw is the Tc (ten of clubs):
You have the Ts and the Jd. Which is the safer throw?
Logically working through:
If opp throws the Tc he cannot have two tens (unless they are both straights).
That means the Ts will make 3 combinations for the opponent:
the 89Ts, the 9TJs, and the TJQs.
However, if you throw the Jd, it will make only 2 combinations:
The opponent cannot have two tens in his hand. He also cannot have the jack of clubs, since no one would throw the Tc if they had the Jc on their first throw. Furthermore he cannot have the Td because he would not split tens (or usually wouldn't. Might be played dependent). Therefore there are only two combinations he can have if he takes the Jd: The JQKd or the Jh Js Jd. Therefore you know the following: The Jc is still in the deck and he has those three exact jacks, or he has that exact straight.

Therefore the Jd is a safer throw. This is common knowledge to anyone who plays, but I hadn't really thought about why it was so.


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You might want to reanalyze this and make a retraction.

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Are you sure? Every strategy guide I've seen recommends the same... From this page:


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Early in the game it is advisable to discard a card ranking one or two away (better one away) and in a different suit to the one previously discarded by opponent. Example: opponent discards 9 of Clubs. It is best to discard one of {10 of Diamonds, 8 or 10 of Hearts, 8 or 10 of Spades, etc.}. If no such card is held, next best bet is to discard a card of rank equal to one discarded by opponent


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[MagicNinja]

Tc:
You have Ts and Jd. Opponent can only use the T for 3 straights.
Opponent can only use the Jd to make one exact combination of jacks (he can't have the Jc, so if he makes 3 jacks, it is exactly Jd Js Jh), and one straight, the JQKd, because he cannot have the Td logically (opponents don't throw straights OESD first throw). Clearly he could have a near lock hand, so he could be throwing coupled cards but its v. unlikely.

Also, Its even less likely he makes the J-Kd straight since he would prolly throw the Kd first rather than the off jack because most people think its the safer throw. Shrug. If my logic is wrong, please correct me jimbo, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

Now for some new stuff, I was playing / watching at a club yesterday for fairly small stakes, about a 100 a game (not donking off anymore money yet), and i was watching the opponent play who i played earlier for the higher stakes, when i noticed he often picks up cards simply to make triangles (eg 7d if he has 76c and 9d) or something. This maybe is why I had a bit of trouble playing against him in the first place, because I wasn't used to playing against someone who specced v. aggressively. Against this kind of play, which I think is kinda bad, should I just be playing a fundamental fast game where I aim to quickly knock and don't worry too much about giving my opponent the cards he needs because its too hard to get exact reads? Hmm..

Also Im interested in how often a great player beats a good player at this game, and so on. Apparently their is less luck than poker, which would mean a 70-80% win rate would be fairly achievable vs someone who had knowledge of the game and had played a lot, but wasn't amazing.

[WhiteWolf]

Query: what does 'speccing' mean? It sounds like a strategy term, but I haven't heard it before here.

TIA,

The Wolf

[MagicNinja]

speccing = taking a card that doesn't make a meld.

EG of a bad spec: 3rd throw is Jd, you hold Jc Qc, and pick up the Jd to make the high triangle.
EG of a spec i'm not really sure about but is probably close: First card up is 2s, hero is to act and has the As and 2d in his hand, as well as an already meld (some people will say this is an automatic take. Others will say its close. Others will never spec).

[Jimbo]

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You have Ts and Jd. Opponent can only use the T for 3 straights.
Opponent can only use the Jd to make one exact combination of jacks (he can't have the Jc, so if he makes 3 jacks, it is exactly Jd Js Jh), and one straight, the JQKd, because he cannot have the Td logically (opponents don't throw straights OESD first throw). Clearly he could have a near lock hand, so he could be throwing coupled cards but its v. unlikely.


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It appears that you are assuming your opponent is an average player. Against a superior player you are making a mistake discarding the diamond jack. Too complex to bother getting too in depth but I will say that this is a common way to both play safe and get information from your oponnent (for the player discarding the first ten with the club jack and the 8 9 T K Q of diamonds for instance).

[MagicNinja]

For starters, I am working on beating average players for greater quantities of money as opposed to beating professional players. However, I am also interested in becoming a better player so;

You believe that the correct throw is the Ts then, but if a player is 'fishing' using the Ts (Eg, looking for someone to throw him the 1 outer Jd), while also playing safe (and this play would be common even in fairly amateur games), to look for the Jd then surely he can also be throwing the Ts looking for the 89Ts or 9TJs or TJQs... And it works out that there's more combinations that use the Ts. Wouldn't he do this with your given hand if he had say, the 9Js instead of the KQd (which is a similar holding), throwing the Ts because as you said it is safe and gives info about the opponents hand? I can't see how your logic works...

Also, since you seem fairly knowledgable about the game Jimbo, I have a few questions: Have you read any book on gin that is worth reading? And have you got any tips for remembering the cards that have been laid already if you do that? (I have no problem remembering them roughly and remember all my opponents picks, but it'd be useful to just remember them all in order as they come out)

[Jimbo]

I use mnemonic storyline memory hooks so I memorize each discard in the exact order in which it was discarded. As far as any books I have analyzed many different rules variations but cannot recommend any books that offer any rational theories or the practical application thereof.

As far as beating average players for more money than beating better players for less this is not like poker. If you are just marginally better in gin you will win a great deal more money because better players will play much higher than average players. After all you can only play gin so well no matter the stories about Stuey.

I used to play every weekend for .50 per point Holywood rules. Made much more than playing for 5 to 10 cents a pont against average players even though the players were much better.

[MagicNinja]

Ok, I am working on memorising the cards using a similar journey technique, just thought perhaps playing lots would substitute.

Wouldn't playing by point presumably change some strategy considerably? We play per game for money.

[Phat Mack]

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Ok, I am working on memorising the cards using a similar journey technique, just thought perhaps playing lots would substitute.

Wouldn't playing by point presumably change some strategy considerably? We play per game for money.

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Playing by point is your best bet when starting out. When playing flop, your opponents will be able to hide too much speed, and you'll have a harder time reading them and learning from them.

Memorising cards will help your discarding greatly. You'll be able to go back and review hands card by card and "reverse engineer" what the early discards should have been. There are lots of early discard strategies that don't key on you opponent's discard and it might be best to work on those.

[MagicNinja]

Playing flop? I presume this means per game. I have no choice but to play money per game. That is ok though, because i'm playing with people who are not amazing anyway, so I should be able to get an edge anyway.

I don't understand what you mean at the start of your post. Presumably it means that when you play per game people play a different style? But you use some terminology I am not familiar with.

Also I recently got the Oswald Jacoby book and there's some stuff in it I'd like to discuss..

Picking up deadwood when it makes you a 4 card meld of deadwood less than 10 points seems to be sound strategy according to jacoby, do pro's do this? EG Your hand is:

A23 9s98h KQsKh 7
Jacoby seems to suggest that if the up card is 4 or lower you should take it to create a sort of 4 card deadwood meld, which aids in very quick knocking (after you take this card you'll knock in 2 good picks.

If the hand seems more suited for 3 melds, of course you don't do this.