Things It took me a while to learn part 2, Position

[Bond18]

One of the most common mistakes I see on these forums is a lack of understanding in regards to position. You see this at all levels of play in MTT’s, and it was a mistake I very often made until recently. At this point, I’ve gone so far off the other edge that I might be too tight out of position, which can hardly be called a hole considering how important it turns out to be.

I think the reason a lot of players (myself included) fail to realize how essential being in position ends up being is one, that MTT players are mostly very bad post flop and don’t know how to take advantage of position, and two stacks are often so short that calling OOP you can’t be taken advantage on multiple streets.

The more you play good players, the more you realize it’s importance. If you want good proof of this, ask the best post flop player you know to play a deep stacked HU SNG and you will literally feel yourself getting taken advantage of.

Thing’s to know about calling OOP: First of all, under 40 BB’s there’s very very few hands you should be calling raises out of the SB with. When it comes to the SB, almost every hand at this stack size is a 3 bet or fold, though there are a few spots where it’s more appropriate. Examples: If a decent and aggressive player raises on the HJ/CO or button raises and you have a stack in the low 30 BB’s calling a hand like KQs, KJs, QJs, AJo is probably okay, though I still hardly end up doing, especially if the BB is a risk to squeeze you. Or if a good player raises in early/middle position and you have something like AQ in the SB, calling is fine as well. Also, you can of course sometimes flat call AA vsv a raise in the SB vs players who won’t be aware that you’re calling range should be so tight.

However, it is clearly the BB where people make the most mistakes, as their getting a discount on seeing the flop and often closing the action pre flop.

A decent range for calling in the BB vs LP raises is KT/KJ/KQ, QT/QJ, JT, AJ/AT, T9s, maybe a few decent suited A’s.

Vs an EP raise my range is reduced drastically, to stuff like AQ, AJs, KQ, QJs, depending on who’s raising and our stack depth. Sometimes I’d go a little looser than that, sometimes a little tighter.

When it comes to playing in position, I think a lot of people on this forum can go even looser than they realize. At the point the antes kick in, anytime it folds to me on the button, assuming the blinds aren’t in a situation where I have very strong reason to suspect they’ll shove, I’m raising an absolute ton of hands.

To give a rough idea of that range, assuming lets say, 30 BB stacks for myself and the blinds would be: 22+/A2o+/43s+/65o+/any two cards 8 and above. T7s+

If stacks were roughly the same and it’s folded to me on the CO I might likely raise a very similar range, though drop a few of the holdings like off suit connectors, T7s, a few of the unsuited ace rags.

When you raise a very wide range like that people in the blinds will start adjusting, however most bad players will adjust by just trying to call more than 3 bet, since as my GF puts it, “3 betting is scary.” Make sure to pay a lot of attention to which players are capable of adjusting with resteals, which adjust with more flat calls, and which just continue to nit it up. Verse people who won’t 3 bet pre, just keep raising your full range since even if they flat call you OOP you should be able to extract a major edge post flop.

When playing this kind of very aggressive style in late positions you should be C betting a lot of flops, though there are a number of flop textures that hit a villains cold calling range so hard that you should check behind. Consider that most semi sensible villains cold calling range in the BB is hands that contain cards 9-A.

So say you get a flop like QT8 after raising 55 on the CO. On a flop like this, villain will have connected enough that your continuation bet will be called or raised an absolute ton so checking behind often becomes optimal. Flop textures to be more cautious on are things like:
QJx, QTx, 89T, 89J, KJ9, JTx, 9Tx, thing’s of that nature.

Hopefully this helps clear up some ideas of position. I’m not sure how much further to elaborate here, but if people have questions or specific areas they’d like to see further explanation on, as always, just ask.

[ughaulkghalugh]

i want to have dirty donkament sex with you bond

[westhoff]

Awesome! Keep it coming!!!

[michaelantoi]

Great post Bond. Have a few questions.

Say the BB/SB start 3betting our button/CO raises.

Do we simply tighten up our range? If so then how much tighter should our range be?

Also, how do we know that it is a re-steal as opposed to them holding something strong?

[Muppet Man]

great post

[ettorek]

Valuable infos: thanks a lot!!!

[Sherman]

First of all, this is a great post. As someone who just learned to really take advantage of position in the last 3 months, this really hits the nail right on the head. I had to go to cash games to learn all the advantages of position, then apply them to MTTs. For everyone else, here they are spelled out right in front of you. Nice one Bond.

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to playing in position, I think a lot of people on this forum can go even looser than they realize. At the point the antes kick in, anytime it folds to me on the button, assuming the blinds aren’t in a situation where I have very strong reason to suspect they’ll shove, I’m raising an absolute ton of hands.

To give a rough idea of that range, assuming lets say, 30 BB stacks for myself and the blinds would be: 22+/A2o+/43s+/65o+/any two cards 8 and above. T7s+


[/ QUOTE ]

I pointed this out in a post by Cheburashka (sp?) a few days ago. I actually like your range better than the range I gave him.

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise a very wide range like that people in the blinds will start adjusting, however most bad players will adjust by just trying to call more than 3 bet,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is undeniably true, especially at SSMTTs.


[ QUOTE ]
So say you get a flop like QT8 after raising 55 on the CO. On a flop like this, villain will have connected enough that your continuation bet will be called or raised an absolute ton so checking behind often becomes optimal. Flop textures to be more cautious on are things like:
QJx, QTx, 89T, 89J, KJ9, JTx, 9Tx, thing’s of that nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that these are flops you should be more cautious on, but I wonder why we shouldn't c-bet our 55 hand. If a villain checks to me on this type of flop and I hold an underpair like 55, I don't really see much value in checking. What am I hoping to accomplish? Not to get check/raised off my 2 outer? In SSMTTs, villains don't check/raise bluff very often, so a check/raise is pretty reliable information that you are behind if you bet with an underpair.

Anyhow, what I am saying is that I don't mind turning my 55 into a bluff in those spots b/c I don't have many outs if I am behind anyway. And if villain check/raises, I have an easy fold w/out putting any more money in the pot. Because we are going to pick up so many pots anyway (b/c they miss 2/3 times and don't bluff enough in SSMTTs) we can profitably c-bet here.

The hands that I don't like c-betting are hands that hate getting check/raised. Like most of our draws (OESD, gut-shot, under-flush). If I feel villain is getting tired of my c-bets, I much prefer to take one off for free on the flop with these types of hands.

Fantastic (and dangerously so) post Bond. I can't help but be concerned that this post will lead to changes in the dynamics of SSMTTs in the near future.

Sherman

[ChipSpeak]

Amazing post Bond. I am a better poker player today than I was yesterday thanks to this, keep up the great work, you're making a real difference.

[cheburashka]

Bond, this is obviously a great post, and we really appreciate you taking the time. Also, thanks to Sherman for a great add.

But I'm wondering if you could expand a bit on post-flop play. A few months ago, you wrote in a post, "Seeing cheap flops in position against bad players is essentially printing money." But above, you limit the discussion to C-betting, and where I feel that I lose value is on later streets.

If we assume you're C-betting in position something like 80% of the time, and villain folds to, say, half of your C-bets, that still leaves a lot of hands to get in trouble on.

So, a couple examples (for the sake of simplicity, let's say you're always on the button HU against BB who called your pre-flop raise; you and villain always have 40BB stacks):

You have 77, flop comes 68K rainbow. Villain calls your c-Bet. Turn is T, and Villain checks. Hero???

You have KhTh, flop comes 9h8c5c. Your C-bet is check-raised. Your action? Assume you call. Turn comes Td, and Villain checks. Hero???

[jonnyd]

bond, do you stray from defending with pairs? i dont see you mention it much

great post/series btw