ATs vs 3 bet preflop

ewile · #1 09-05-2007, 10:46 PM

CO is 36/7/1.3 188 hands
MP3 I had only 15 hands against but he was 30/0 in that short time.
Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (11.5SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (13.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Hero folds, MP3 calls all-in $1.

Results:
Final pot: 17.25BB

Heads up I probably would have gone into call down mode against the 3 bet. Here I went for the c/r to try to knock out MP3.

On the river it seemed a clear fold to me.

Anyone approach this differently?

Point Blank · #2 09-05-2007, 10:57 PM

i can fold TPTK in this spot ...

CO isn't a big raiser so his 3bet generally 'means' something ... then he bet-3bet the flop

the only hand that you beat that I could see this guy bet-raising the flop and 3bet PF is AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i don't think calling down is bad option either; though, on the river I can't see you being good enough to call the raise

i guess you would have won or this wouldn't have been posted [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
EDIT
guess you can include 99 too

CrMenace · #3 09-05-2007, 11:34 PM

Waiting for turn to raise would be a good option here. There are many cards that come that could spoil your hand. Giving 7:1 after the c/r, you aren't protecting much.

As played, turn c/c is fine.

Gotta fold river.

milesdyson · #4 09-05-2007, 11:46 PM

waiting to raise is not good because he won't bet all the times your hand is good. AJ/AQ/AK/99 usually bet flop, they don't always bet the turn.

turn is obvious with likely 4-5 outs and implied odds. be glad he got donked to make it an easy river fold.

CrMenace · #5 09-05-2007, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
waiting to raise is not good because he won't bet all the times your hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true pretty much always, isn't it? When would you therefore ever wait for the turn? I guess only when you have an overpair and villain might bet top pair?

NIX · #6 09-06-2007, 12:37 AM

I play it the same. NH.

NIX · #7 09-06-2007, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
waiting to raise is not good because he won't bet all the times your hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true pretty much always, isn't it? When would you therefore ever wait for the turn? I guess only when you have an overpair and villain might bet top pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's easier if you're in position. Here, if CO checks behind on the turn, you miss out on a street's worth of bets and give MP3/CO free shots at their draws. At least if you're in position, you can ensure a bet goes in on every street.

ewile · #8 09-06-2007, 10:10 PM

Thanks folks.

maverickai · #9 09-07-2007, 03:58 AM

MilesDyson, I would like to ask a question regarding raising on the flop and raising on the turn. I would be doing my analysis based on pot odds.

Raising on the flop

When Hero raised after CO has bet, MP3 is faced with a 2SB call in a pot of 14.5SB. That would be, like what CrMenace mentioned, a pot odds of 7.5 to 1. I believe anyone with some kinda draw would have called. Hence Hero is not effectively defending his hands.

Raising on the turn
Suppose Hero called CO’s flop bet, and MP3 closed the action by calling too, that would bring the pot to 14.5SB. If Hero had raised on the turn after CO bet, MP3 would be faced with 2BB call in a pot of 10.25BB. That would be approx 5:1 pot odds, and seems to be more effective in protecting his hand.

So my question is, why would you still prefer to raise on the flop compared to the river? Is it because there's a possiblity the hand will be checked down?

NIX · #10 09-07-2007, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, why would you still prefer to raise on the flop compared to the river? Is it because there's a possiblity the hand will be checked down?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not miles, but yes. Also, value betting > protection. As miles said, if CO has AK/AQ, he's not always betting the turn. If we look to check/raise him there, not only might we miss the chance to do so and therefore the chance to protect our hand, it also means that we're probably ahead on the turn and missed a value bet, which is even worse. Plus, in the situation that CO does have UI overs, he may call the flop raise thinking he has 6 good outs to beat us when in reality, he only has 3 since we have him reverse dominated which gives him the chance to make a mistake and call. MP3 may do the same thing as well if he has an AJ/A7 kind of hand.