Justified? Actually, I think so! (Not Blackwater Related)

[DblBarrelJ]

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I agree. Although, to be fair, neither of them died, but they shouldn't be charged with the injuries either.

I've had numerous discussions with both NARCs and TROs (Tactical Response Operators), who always seem to disagree on the issue of No Knock warrants. The Narc guys love these warrants, mostly because they don't know any better.

I'm unaware of the specifics of police training in Philly, but here in GA, detectives are minimally trained tactically, if at all. They have this mentality that "The offender will flush the narcotics before opening the door."

While that may be the case, the TROs have real tactical training, and realize how much danger you're putting yourself in anytime you execute a no knock.

No Knock warrants do have a place in LE, but the only time they should be used is to save a life, not for drug offenses.

If the police have reason to believe an individual is holding a kidnapped child hostage on a tip, but has no visual confirmation, that is the place for a No Knock. (In GA, you do not need a warrant to enter a property if you have confirmation that a kidnapped victim is inside)

I personally don't like the No Knocks, didn't use them much, but then again, when I was on the street, I had a Captain with a brain, so these types of things weren't of issue.

Our standing policy was "If you make the buy, you don't get to make the bust".

We also had a rule strictly forbidding any officer from wearing a mask while serving a warrant, unless it was approved by the brass.

The only time it was approved was in situations where we were dealing with an organization with enough muscle and intelligence to make retaliation a real possibility.

That's another issue I have. I haven't seen where it said they were or not, but I would be willing to bet these two were wearing masks. If you kick down my door wearing a mask, you're target #1.

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since you have experience, do you think the article was just sloppy and the two plain clothed officers served the warrant with like 10 other officers?

if the two were by themselves it seems fishy, I can't imagine just two of them served a no knock warrant on a crack house.

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They would've had other officers with them, but to me, that's a non issue. I've dealt with narc's of this "breed" on several occasions. They like to be the first ones in the door, and I can almost assure you, in this case they were. They probably did have a SWAT or SRT team with them though.

If you bust down the door wearing tactical gear and vests that say "POLICE" in 7" letters across the chest in silver reflective print, you stand a much better chance of being identified as a police officer than if you kick down the door in street clothes with a badge hanging around your neck.

Again, as I said, I'm not a fan of No Knock warrants, another reason, on top of the reasons stated above, is how aware I am of the ease of availability to police gear.

Here are some links, for those of you who've never bothered to check into how easily it is to impersonate an officer.

link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4

And there are thousands and thousands more websites just like these, and very few of them go through the process of checking creds before allowing you to purchase police gear.

Another scary thought? All of the websites I linked sell police lighting and other "cruiser" gear for automobiles. Link 1
actually has virtually everything you would need to turn a bone stock 4dr Ford Crown Victoria into a full on police cruiser, with the exception of paint and decals, which you could easily have made at any print shop.

FWIW, I've only made two off duty arrests in my life, one of which was a dumbass who attempted to execute a traffic stop on me one night using a Ford Explorer with yellow flashing lights. As he approached my vehicle he was immediately met with my badge in my left hand and a .45 in my right.

This type of thing is running rampant, and I've dealt with several cases in which the "Police" kicked down someone's door, held them at gunpoint, and stole their stuff, and they would call as soon as they left to file a complaint, only to be told no warrant had been issued and no police had been dispatched at all to the residence.

[PLOlover]

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They would've had other officers with them, but to me, that's a non issue. I've dealt with narc's of this "breed" on several occasions. They like to be the first ones in the door, and I can almost assure you, in this case they were. They probably did have a SWAT or SRT team with them though.

If you bust down the door wearing tactical gear and vests that say "POLICE" in 7" letters across the chest in silver reflective print, you stand a much better chance of being identified as a police officer than if you kick down the door in street clothes with a badge hanging around your neck.

Again, as I said, I'm not a fan of No Knock warrants, another reason, on top of the reasons stated above, is how aware I am of the ease of availability to police gear.

Here are some links, for those of you who've never bothered to check into how easily it is to impersonate an officer.

link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4

And there are thousands and thousands more websites just like these, and very few of them go through the process of checking creds before allowing you to purchase police gear.

Another scary thought? All of the websites I linked sell police lighting and other "cruiser" gear for automobiles. Link 1
actually has virtually everything you would need to turn a bone stock 4dr Ford Crown Victoria into a full on police cruiser, with the exception of paint and decals, which you could easily have made at any print shop.

FWIW, I've only made two off duty arrests in my life, one of which was a dumbass who attempted to execute a traffic stop on me one night using a Ford Explorer with yellow flashing lights. As he approached my vehicle he was immediately met with my badge in my left hand and a .45 in my right.

This type of thing is running rampant, and I've dealt with several cases in which the "Police" kicked down someone's door, held them at gunpoint, and stole their stuff, and they would call as soon as they left to file a complaint, only to be told no warrant had been issued and no police had been dispatched at all to the residence.

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oh yeah you're right, I was just saying that originally it looked like the two guys were working (alone) off duty and ripping off the dealers or something.

yeah even worse though is how the police can act. One time a police officer called me on the phone, identified herself (sounded about 12 honestly) as a police officer, I said ok, give me an official police number to call you back on. she then proceeded to insult me and call me names and stuff, and I'm sitting there thinking it's a prank call. turns out it really was a police officer and I was just totally stunned.

[Bedreviter]

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Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson said police trying to serve the warrant in the city's Frankford section rang a house's doorbell twice Tuesday night, then used a battering ram on the door. The shooter fired at them through a window, he said.

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AP article

Does ringing the doorbell twice count as knocking, or is it a No Knock since they were not technically knocking?

And the guy shot at them through a window, its not like he was shooting at two unidentified persons who were storming at him.

Justified? Actually, I think not!

[DblBarrelJ]

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Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson said police trying to serve the warrant in the city's Frankford section rang a house's doorbell twice Tuesday night, then used a battering ram on the door. The shooter fired at them through a window, he said.

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AP article

Does ringing the doorbell twice count as knocking, or is it a No Knock since they were not technically knocking?

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Legally it counts as knocking. But the spirit of the law is to actually allow the person to have time to open the door, not ringing the doorbell twice in .5 second, then busting the door down. I've been there. I've seen it done.

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And the guy shot at them through a window, its not like he was shooting at two unidentified persons who were storming at him.

Justified? Actually, I think not!

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You do understand what "Plain Clothes" mean, right? In his mind these were not two police officers, they were two guys who'd just bought cocaine from him a few hours earlier.