(NL5) 200BB deep Hero flops middle set OOP in a raised family pot

BotOnTilt · #1 07-31-2007, 09:51 AM

Hello sirs,

This hand confuses me a bit, I'm not used to playing raised pots with this many people and with a hand as strong as mine. Although I think that the fact that this is the largest pot I have seen in NL5 is part of the reason why I have been wondering if I could have played better.

Reads: MP1 was 13/5 over the 30 hands I've played with him. He seemed weak tight and I wouldn't be surprised if he stacked himself easily.

MP2 was loose and quite aggressive, he seemed like a very good player. I was not too happy to see him in the pot. His stats for 45 hands were 29/11.

Button seemed loose and didn't seem to be too good.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($1.79)
CO ($2.94)
Button ($3.18)
SB ($4.91)
BB ($1.78)
UTG ($5.15)
Hero ($10.15)
UTG+2 ($5.12)
MP1 ($4.27)
MP2 ($12.72)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls $0.04, UTG+2 calls $0.04, MP1 raises to $0.2, MP2 calls $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, 1 fold, Button calls $0.20, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.16, Hero calls $0.16, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: ($1.44) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.28, MP2 raises to $0.56, MP3 folds, Button calls $0.56, SB folds, BB folds, Hero??

I checked the flop since I was sure I would see some action and figured I would wait until there was more money in the pot. I was surprised about the minraise from MP2 and the call of a reraise from the button, I figured MP1 probably has an over pair or AK. I'm wondering if a call would be good here, since I don't think MP1 can fold to a min-raise and if he re-raises I'm also glad. I'm thinking that the only hands that worry me is a flush draw or top set and if the turn is safe the pot will be so large that we will be committed.

I don't think its impossible for several over pairs (or a funky two pair) to be in this pot, and if thats the case I could slow play my set and take a huge pot - or should I try to take it down by pushing now?

Any comments appreciated [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SABR42 · #2 07-31-2007, 09:55 AM

Raise to $3, and then shove any turn.

Set = ARRRRRRRR-IN.

Cry Me A River · #3 07-31-2007, 10:04 AM

Exactly as SABR42 said,

ARRRRRRR-IN!

Worrying about 77 or 46 is monsters under the bed. You have the best hand almost always and you have huge equity in this pot 3-ways. You want to get as much money in there as quickly as possible. Yes you will get coolered or sucked out on every once in a while. However in the long run this is way too profitable a spot for you to not be jamming this as hard as possible.

CallMeJohn · #4 07-31-2007, 10:12 AM

You hit the jackpot. Try to get it in. Bet the flop to build the pot as fast as possible.

As played, raise/call shove/shove turn.

BotOnTilt · #5 07-31-2007, 10:32 AM

I decided to slow play, thought that it would be nice to keep MP1 in the pot. I do think you guys are right and I should have shoved. Here is the action for the flop and the turn:

Hero calls $0.56, MP1 calls $0.28.

Turn: ($3.68) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $3.5, Button folds, Hero calls $3.50, MP1 bets $4.27 (All-In), MP2 calls $0.70, Hero calls $0.70.

The 6 only fills a gut shot, impossible for MP1 to have raised pf with a hand that gets improved by the 6, and I don't see MP2 re-raising flop in a multiway pot with a gutshot, right?

I thought I'd CRAI, but the large bet from MP1 made me think he will be commited for his stack and I have a chance of getting MP1's stack in the middle if I just call and push the turn. Was this bad?

Kornspitz · #6 07-31-2007, 11:14 AM

How can MP1 have a starting stack of $4.27 and go all-in with that same amount on turn?

I think MP2 could have 77, 44, 66 or 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] which beats all beat you now. But of course he could as well have any overpair and since you didn't reraise him on the flop you can't know at all.

If you got such a strong read on MP1 that you were quite sure he would call MP2's bet and might fold to a reraise from you, I like just calling, although reraising might be better if you think he's capable of playing a fd that aggressively. Don't know if I would lead or just c/c river.

mce86 · #7 07-31-2007, 11:35 AM

Time for a good raise. We need to get those shorties in there by raising to Id say 4.50. Get their money in good. I doubt they will fold, but at least you are getting yours in a head. On the turn, if MP2 calls, your looking to get your money in on any card. If he is on a diamond draw, good job, but I dont think he is since he is raising mutliple people on the flop.

mack848 · #8 07-31-2007, 11:42 AM

A flush draw is pretty likely to be against you on the flop with this much betting/raising and calling - I think you have to re-raise to $3 or $3.50 here.

Individually your opponents may be in bad shape, but they likely have a lot of outs against you between them - get it in now whilst you are ahead.

BotOnTilt · #9 07-31-2007, 12:33 PM

Kornspitz, the inconsistency is because of my hand converter for some reason when someone goes all in it converts it like this ( MP1 calls $4.27 (All-In), MP2 calls $0.00, Hero calls $0.00) so I had to manually adjust the values. Didn't notice the error in the bet size.

My read on MP1 isn't that strong, but my gut says that if he is on an over pair then going all in against one aggressive villain is more likely than if I also show strength in re-raising.

[ QUOTE ]
Time for a good raise. We need to get those shorties in there by raising to Id say 4.50. Get their money in good.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one is really short at this hand, Button has only 80BB's, MP1 has 100+ and the two remaining are over 200BB's deep.

I guess it might be time for the results...

River: ($14.97) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $5, Hero calls $10.15 (All-In), MP2 calls $0.88.

Final Pot: about $25
On this river I figured that I'd probably have the best hand but I would'nt mind to check it down - if he had the FD he wouldn't call anyway.

Results in white below: 
Hero has 5s 5d (three of a kind, fives).
MP1 has Ad Ac (one pair, aces).
MP2 has 9d 8d (straight, nine high).
Outcome: MP2 wins $25. 

I like SABR42's line of raising the flop to $3 and then shoving. On retrospect I don't like my passive play in this hand at all, I was too sure that they had over pairs since that would be typical play for NL5 (I don't remember seing anyone re-raising a FD+gut at my low limits even though its a good play).

I often slow play monsters, but with the flush draw and several opponents thats probably a very bad idea. In this hand I guess we would have gotten it all in on the flop if I had raised? I mean with the FD+gut he had so many outs that it would be hard to lay down. Still I guess I played the hand very badly, being completely passive.

Thank you sirs for your time and your answers so far. Next time I will raise that flop [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Cry Me A River · #10 07-31-2007, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I often slow play monsters,

[/ QUOTE ]

Fancy Play Syndrome.

A big part of learning to play poker is learning to adjust to your opponents. You are playing $5NL. The number of times where it's going to be appropriate to slowplay are very, very few. It's $5NL! You don't have to fool them into calling you, calling is what they do.

Everyone in the micros complain about being called down my middle pair and opponent sucking out on the river. Why would you suddenly NOT get called down when you have a monster?

In particular, slowplay raised pots almost never and boards as draw heavy like this are the antithesis of slowplay.

I would not slowplay this hand at $200NL, you'd better believe I would never slowplay it at $5NL!

Let me put it bluntly.

If you're playing $5NL, your skill level is likely not high enough for you to reliably determine the rare good spots to slowplay at this level. So you'd be much better off to just NEVER slowplay.

Slowplaying too much is a massive leak. Far, far better to slowplay too little.