Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question

[pokerbobo]

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I dont see how healthcare is a basic human right. Taking from one group of people and giving to another is socialism. The USA was built on capitalism not socialism.

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All due respect, this is a really dumb opinion. One might say that the USA was built on the backs of African slaves, stolen from Native Americans, and layered over the corpses of immigrant laborers. Using reductio ad absurdum on your argument would leave us with a government that doesn't tax anyone for anything and does nothing. Hey, wait a minute...

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No, this is not a dumb opinion... every person in the US has a right to purchase healthcare... the best they can afford. Just as rich people can afford better food, homes and clothes... (all considered basic human needs) they can also afford better healthcare.

The govt supplies the poor with help in food and shelter, as they do in healthcare... but you get the basics, not the best.

And just to reply to the slave/indian comments.... Who are better off now... the descendents of slaves living in America or the people born in Africa? Even welfare recips likely have more than the average Ethiopian, Tanzanian, congoian, whatever. Yes the ancestors suffered.... but the descendents have gained. That is why there was not a mass exodus back to the motherland post slavery era.

The indians were given reservations, along with other benefits.... I know it really sucked for them, but do you really hink no one would have come here if we didnt? Do you think Hitler would have had moral issues with exterminating them? How about Stalin? Japan has very little realestate.... the indian land would have been a prime target. Therefore, it could be argued that we saved the indian bloodlines from extintion, because if it wasnt us... it would have been someone else. Again, not trying to justify the events, merely point out the other ways it could have turned out. (none of them being good for the indian population)

[hobbes9324]

Huh. In Nevada, if I went bare, I couldn't practice. No hospital would give me privliges.

I'm going to avoid the political angle, although I obviously have some strong feelings about the system.

The best explanation I have ever heard about why our healthcare system is so screwed up follows 0-

Medicine is like a three legged stool -
-- leg one --- cutting edge technology
-- leg two --- immediate care (on demand)
-- leg three -- for free, or pretty close for free.

The deal is, you can have any two of the three - but not all of them.

Immediate care for free - third world medicine - you may have someone shaking a chicken over your head to cure your brain tumor, but the price is right, and you can have it today.

Cutting edge care for free (or low cost) - to some degree, the socialized medicine countries do this. You may wait 8 mos to get your gallbladder out, or not be allowed dialysis if you're over a certain age. Does keep the costs down, at some social cost.

Cutting edge today - our current model, for the most part. INSANELY expensive, but pretty good care, when you need it.

BUT YOU CAN'T have all three. As a society, we have elected to ignore this.....which is why we're in the spot we're in.

MM MD

[kyleb]

As soon as America's population stops eating fast food, starts exercising, and stops being hypochondriacs, then I might support a form of healthcare that is paid via my taxes.

Until such time, go [censored] yourselves, Americans. You have no sense of individual responsibility - the very value that built this country from scratch.

People need to be responsible for themselves first and not expect the government to bail them out if things go wrong. When things go wrong, you usually screwed up. I do not want to pay for healthcare for people who are idiots and eat a ton of Big Macs with no regard for their own safety and health. They do not deserve my pity, my money, or my attention.

How do you differentiate from the idiots and the truly unlucky? When you can answer this question (as well as the other concerns I have as outlined above), I will start to support a comprehensive healthcare plan.

[Cancuk]

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I dont see how healthcare is a basic human right. Taking from one group of people and giving to another is socialism. The USA was built on capitalism not socialism.

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All due respect, this is a really dumb opinion. One might say that the USA was built on the backs of African slaves, stolen from Native Americans, and layered over the corpses of immigrant laborers. Using reductio ad absurdum on your argument would leave us with a government that doesn't tax anyone for anything and does nothing. Hey, wait a minute...

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there was no socialised healthcare in this country for over 200 years. If more and more things start becoming human rights then people will pay 100% of their money to taxes and the goverment can give us each a stipend to live on.

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Excellent point.

[hobbes9324]

On one hand, I agree with you. A lot of what I see in the ED is self inflicted - smoking and obesity being the two biggest issues.

OTOH, how are you going to design a system that sorts out the sheep from the goats? I see a fair number of "innocent" trauma patients - usually ones that are hit by drunk drivers. In our state, for any kind of real car accident that requires an ambulance run, you're looking at $10000 BEFORE I SEE YOU OR ORDER A TEST. If you're working at Wal-Mart as a single mother, you're screwed.

And don't believe that having insurance means you're covered. God help you if you're stuck with B--- Cr--- or
B--- Sh----, at least in my state. My group ended up suing the [censored] just to get coverage that we had paid for. Most people don't have the ability (meaning $$) to go after them - we actually lost money on the legal expenses, but we were so pissed off, we thought it was worth it.

I don't have a solution. But the boat is sinking. The water's at our knees, and no one is even looking for a pump.

MM MD

[amplify]

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[ QUOTE ]
I dont see how healthcare is a basic human right. Taking from one group of people and giving to another is socialism. The USA was built on capitalism not socialism.

[/ QUOTE ]
All due respect, this is a really dumb opinion. One might say that the USA was built on the backs of African slaves, stolen from Native Americans, and layered over the corpses of immigrant laborers. Using reductio ad absurdum on your argument would leave us with a government that doesn't tax anyone for anything and does nothing. Hey, wait a minute...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is not a dumb opinion... every person in the US has a right to purchase healthcare... the best they can afford. Just as rich people can afford better food, homes and clothes... (all considered basic human needs) they can also afford better healthcare.

The govt supplies the poor with help in food and shelter, as they do in healthcare... but you get the basics, not the best.

And just to reply to the slave/indian comments.... Who are better off now... the descendents of slaves living in America or the people born in Africa? Even welfare recips likely have more than the average Ethiopian, Tanzanian, congoian, whatever. Yes the ancestors suffered.... but the descendents have gained. That is why there was not a mass exodus back to the motherland post slavery era.

The indians were given reservations, along with other benefits.... I know it really sucked for them, but do you really hink no one would have come here if we didnt? Do you think Hitler would have had moral issues with exterminating them? How about Stalin? Japan has very little realestate.... the indian land would have been a prime target. Therefore, it could be argued that we saved the indian bloodlines from extintion, because if it wasnt us... it would have been someone else. Again, not trying to justify the events, merely point out the other ways it could have turned out. (none of them being good for the indian population)

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I would just like to point out that I have pointed out 3 times already that I was kidding in this post and people keep responding to it seriously.

[kyleb]

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OTOH, how are you going to design a system that sorts out the sheep from the goats?

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Short answer: You can't, therefore developing a full public system for it is a waste of taxpayers' money as many will commit fraud. If you don't mind people defrauding you, I guess that's fine. I do.

[hobbes9324]

Understood. But then for the "sheep" - tough luck?

Should being unlucky mean you lose everything you've worked for? I dunno.....

no good answer, I guess.....

MM MD

[Jamougha]

It's worth bearing in mind hat the US government spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation on the planet.

Also, the 'inefficient', socialised systems in the rest of the developed world are in fact rather more efficient than he private sytem in the US. Canada, for example, spends around $300 per person per year on administration. In the US the figure is around three times that.

There's a good book called The Undercover Economist, which explains why the inherent inequality of information between the insurer and the insured leads to market failure and poor efficiency.

In practice universal health care would mean that the vast majority of people would pay much less for healthcare and have much greater securiy, peace of mind and job flexibility. The main role of government is to intervene in cases of market failure like this. I can't see why you would not want to do it.

[kyleb]

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It's worth bearing in mind hat the US government spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation on the planet.

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The U.S. also has socialized medicine. Your point?

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The main role of government is to intervene in cases of market failure like this. I can't see why you would not want to do it.

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I don't want to do it because I reject your premise that you base that accusation on. The main role of government is to protect the citizens from fraud and coercion, not "intervene in cases of market failure."

Also, please define "market failure."