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  #1  
Old 11-26-2007, 10:45 AM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default 63o - hand vs Private Joker

Private Joker raises. 4 callers. I call with 63o, because stox says to call with any 2 here, and because I am drinking a corona.

Flop JT3 2 spades.

I check. PJ bets. 2 callers. I call.

Turn is an offsuit 6. I check. PJ bets. 1 caller. I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:42 AM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

i don't know pj's playing style but have seen it described as solid and it doesn't seem like he'd b/3b the turn with anything you beat here really? would he play a huge spade draw hand this way or aj or aa?
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:49 AM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know pj's playing style but have seen it described as solid and it doesn't seem like he'd b/3b the turn with anything you beat here really? would he play a huge spade draw hand this way or aj or aa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well given that if he does have AA, he shouldn't really put me on much he beats except I would play a turned pair+flushdraw like this. With an OESFD, I would CR on the flop 100%.

If he has AA, he could be vainly trying to KO the lady's draw, but I think he may have known that wouldn't happen, and that his equity wouldn't be positive vs me.
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2007, 02:28 PM
brick brick is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

I can't imagine he would 3-bet with AA, KK or QQ here unless he thinks you're trying to check raise him off his big pair.
Does he think you might check raise a single pair here?

If he suspects you have two small pair then I would imagine he would just call hoping to counterfit you. By 3-betting he's saying "I have you crushed."
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:21 PM
Garland Garland is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine he would 3-bet with AA, KK or QQ here

[/ QUOTE ]

I can...along with AJ and KJ if he plays it from that early on.

[ QUOTE ]

If he suspects you have two small pair then I would imagine he would just call hoping to counterfit you. By 3-betting he's saying "I have you crushed."

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Think about it from PJ's prospective: That turn 6 was pretty innocuous (there's no way it should improve any hand on the turn, right?). So he'll probably think snowball was making a move at it on the turn with some mediocre hand trying to get PJ off the best hand, while charging the drawer.

You have a hidden gem of hand. Easy 4-bet and lead non-scary river. And despite what stox says, I'm probably folding 63o to a raise pre-flop.

Garland
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:42 PM
n.s. n.s. is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

The only reason I can think of to continue is that PJ knows that we didn't flop a big hand (including an OESFD) because we didn't check-raise or lead out on that draw-heavy flop. Also, he knows that we wouldn't call the flop with 66. So, the only hands that make sense for hero are J6/T6/36, and if PJ doesn't know that OP read stox's book (or never read it himself), then he might think that OP wouldn't call PF with any of those hands.

So it's possible that PJ went through that thought process and determined that OP simply couldn't have a hand that beats his overpair. I think that's enough doubt to call here and call again on the river (plus we could have outs again JTs).

I think 4-betting is too much because too often PJ will have JJ or TT here. Also it'll be an easy fold for him with an overpair when he'd probably bet again on the river with it (so we win the same, lose less).
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:02 PM
Garland Garland is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

[ QUOTE ]
I think 4-betting is too much because too often PJ will have JJ or TT here. Also it'll be an easy fold for him with an overpair when he'd probably bet again on the river with it (so we win the same, lose less).

[/ QUOTE ]

Given his range of hands (AJ, AA, KK, QQ, maybe KJ along with of course the JJ and TT), I think 63 kills his range. Some thoughts on the turn:

It's a 4-bet cap. If we are ahead, we need to charge the drawer. In addition, we need to charge PJ to draw to counterfeits and better two pair etc.

If PJ does have a set, he will raise on the river, and I am perfectly willing to fold to a river raise.

Garland
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:29 PM
n.s. n.s. is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

[ QUOTE ]
Given his range of hands (AJ, AA, KK, QQ, maybe KJ along with of course the JJ and TT), I think 63 kills his range. Some thoughts on the turn:

It's a 4-bet cap. If we are ahead, we need to charge the drawer. In addition, we need to charge PJ to draw to counterfeits and better two pair etc.

If PJ does have a set, he will raise on the river, and I am perfectly willing to fold to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that really is his range and it's all weighted equally, then capping is clearly right - I just think that his range is weighted more towards the hands that crush us than the ones that we beat (i.e. he won't 3-bet every time with one pair, but he'll always do it with a set). Letting him draw to his 5-8 outer is tempered by the times that we are way behind and save a bet (or two bets, if the river comes bad and we can just check-fold), and the times that the river is a blank and we make the same amount (by calling twice) as capping the turn and leading.
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:46 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

gosh i think it's a lot closer to a fold than to a 4bet, sheesh
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2007, 04:51 PM
Michael Davis Michael Davis is offline
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Default Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker

"gosh i think it's a lot closer to a fold than to a 4bet, sheesh"

Agreed, but it probably becomes a cap if you are already down a million dollars, are potentially steaming or appear to be, or if the villain thinks you are capable of completely effing around.

-Michael
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