Caesar's Palace- Player went all in and ran away with $ after I called

[Michigan_Madman]

I just left a $2-$5 no limit cash game at Caesar's in Las Vegas. What just happened to me sounds like something out of a movie. A player who had over $2,000 in front of him went all in and I called with $1,255 in front of me. Then the player declared that he hadn't gone all in, took his money, and left. Now to the details.

This player had said earlier that his name is J.R. My name is Matt. We were in the poker room at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, at table 9 in the middle of the room. I was in the 2 seat, and J.R. was in the 6 seat. FYI Caesar's has all of their cash games going 9 handed now.

J.R. had been playing erratically, and had gone all in for over $1,000 several times on the flop with $100 or less in the pot. One time about 25 minutes before this final hand happened, he went all in for $1,015 when there was about $100 in the pot. The flop was ten high with two hearts. Finally the player in seat 3 called him, with a bigger stack. J.R. had T7 for a pair of tens with 7 kicker, which held up. The other times he went all in like this, no one called him.

So the hand. I get JJ in the BB, seat 2. J.R. raises it to $20 in seat 6. The button on seat 9 calls, I call, as does a limper in seat 4 or 5. The flop comes Jxx, I think J42 or J45. I check, hoping that J.R. will do the all in move once again. Everyone checks around. The turn brings another small card. I wish I had the exact cards, but I don't remember for sure. I bet 40, the next player folds, and J.R. asks me how many bills I have. $100 bills play on the table in this game, and I had 4 of them behind my stack of chips. I had $655 in red & smaller chips, two black chips, and the four $100 bills. I answered him that I had 4 bills. He then said 'I'll put him all in.' I was so glad to hear this that I acted out of turn, something I normally never do. But I had forgotten the 9 seat was still in the hand, I couldn't see his cards. I said 'I call'. Then the dealer said the action was over here (at the 9 seat), at which point J.R. mucked his hand. The 9 seat then folded as well, and I said 'he said he was all in' and the dealer and several players agreed. J.R. started going on about how he hadn't said that, but the dealer and players at the table backed me up.

J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave. I went around to pursue him, and then the floor man said 'don't, we'll take care of it' and I asked him 'you are going to take care of this?' and he said yes. He had already made a ruling that the all in was valid and that I was owed the money, before J.R. tried to leave.

So the floor man and a couple other poker room employees pursued him. I put my faith in them as they asked, and stayed at the table. About 10 minutes later, they returned with J.R., escorted by 4-5 security guards. The debate ensued again over whether he had been all in. J.R. asked the table if they had heard him go all in, he said 'anyone who heard me go all in raise your hand' and 4-5 people at the table raised their hands. It was also clarified that he had more money on the table than I did, and that I had $1,255 when he went all in. He refused to pay.

J.R. leaves again, with security letting him walk, but surrounding him. I ask what is going on, and they tell me they will take care of it. A few minutes later, I am told that J.R. has been taken to a holding area.

The casino manager shows up and tells me they would do what they could. He said that they could not force him to take money out of his pocket to pay me. I asked if Caesar's would stand good for the wager and collect from him, and he said they would not. He said that Caesar's only deals cards and rents space to players, and that they are not responsible for making sure that bets are paid. He said the only way I would get paid is if the other player voluntarily gives up the money.

Caesar's then asks everyone at the table to make a written statement. I and several of the players agreed, and wrote out statements saying what they saw happen, and provided contact information.

Then a gaming control agent arrives. He is a state of Nevada police officer, in the gaming control board enforcement division. He reviews the written statements of the players, including mine. Then he calls me over, and tells me that he has enough evidence and he wants to charge J.R. with felony robbery. I asked about getting my money, and he said that even if J.R. gets scared and gives it up tonight, that they would keep it as evidence, and I would get it back waaaaaay later at the end of the court case, months later. He said he wants to charge J.R. regardless of what he agrees to at this point, so that players do not try to do this in the future. If J.R. were allowed to leave just by offering to pay up, then he would have had nothing to lose by trying to walk away. I see this police officer's point, and I agree with it. The downside of that is that I am out $1,255. Who knows if I'll ever get it back through restitution. The only way I'll see the money now is from a check cut by the court, after J.R. pays restitution. And of course, that's only if he's found guilty in court, or does a plea bargain.

I asked the manager again about getting my money. I told him, how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses? I guarantee if that bet had been at a blackjack table, the casino would have made sure that money was collected. He said they weren't responsible for making sure I was paid, and that they wouldn't pay me, and the only way I was getting paid was to get the money from the other player.

How can a poker room be like this? I would never even consider not paying a bet. So if an opponent doesn't share those values, he can just decide not to pay? He's being charged with robbery, but what if he gets off through some technicality? Caesar's is just going to let the guy go all in, declare that the bet is valid, my call is valid, then let the guy take his money off the table and leave? I think they should stand good for the bet, and collect it from him. Several players in the room expressed their dismay, one guy even said he would never come back. Who knows about that, but is it worth $1,255 for their reputation to be tarnished? I don't know how other rooms would deal with this, but I think especially since this is not a lot of money to a casino, that they would pay me the money, the amount they themselves verified was the wager, and collect it from the offender.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I can do?

Do I have any options?

Would any poker room act like this? If not, where is a better place to go?

Sorry this was so long, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left some things out and was a little convoluted. If anyone has questions or advice, please let me know!

This is Nevada Gaming Control Board case # 2006-8854-LV.

Thanks,
Matt

[Quadstriker]

Crazy story. Hope you get your money. Hope the villain gets his due from Bubba.

[boondockst]

It by no means would make up for your money but they didnt offer you some insane comps?

[boondockst]

it was funny (no, ironic) that I'd thought about if someone had done this before and I envisioned the player getting gang tackled by security. Insane that this is how it goes down. I'd love to see them stand politely by and not collect a $25 BJ bet let alone a $1K+ one.

[Michigan_Madman]

They tried to assuade me by saying if I came back and played the next few days (I am a regular) they would comp me a dinner. I guess they are doing that to try and keep me from going elsewhere. I'll probably stop in tomorrow to see if there is news, but I'm not going to play there for the time being.

[Michigan_Madman]

Yup, it's like they are so afraid to lay hands on someone now because of lawsuits. What is it coming to when something as simple as this can't just be paid and done with.

[RR]

I am very suprised the casino went as far as they did to help you and I am also suprised that gaming would shose to charge him with anything in this case. I have mentioned elsewhere on this board that the money needs to go into the pot. He siad he is putting you all in; that is binding for poker, but who knows what a jury would say. If he is charged adn this thing goes to trial they are going to see a video tape of him not putting a thing in the pot and then throwing his cards in the muck. I would be very suprised if a prosecutor decides to prosecute this case.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let him walk away? They grabbed him and arrested him and was charging him with a felony. Walk away?

Say someone jumps you in the men's room and takes your wallet with $1500 in it. You want Caesar's to pay you the $1500 and try to collect from the crook they caught and put in jail?

If the money is evidence, it should be held for you if he is proven guilty. There is no "restitution". That implies he will get the money back and then pay you.

[Michigan_Madman]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let him walk away? They grabbed him and arrested him and was charging him with a felony. Walk away?

Say someone jumps you in the men's room and takes your wallet with $1500 in it. You want Caesar's to pay you the $1500 and try to collect from the crook they caught and put in jail?

If the money is evidence, it should be held for you if he is proven guilty. There is no "restitution". That implies he will get the money back and then pay you.

[/ QUOTE ]

They let him walk away in the sense that I'm at home now, and I'm $1,255 light.

Caesar's is not hosting a poker game in the men's room.

[JJNJustin]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. What the hell do we pay all that rake for? If this turd gets away with this, nothing, apparently.

I feel for you man. That it an awful thing to have to happen while in Vegas. Players like this will eventually get beaten or killed, and word of this should blackball him from most games.

-J