3SP: A new NLHE format that requires skill, not recklessness.

[Vorlin]

DVault1:

First, the post is not about any collection of beats and I'm tiring of people trying to hijack the thread and take it in that direction. It's about an idea for an MTT format that attempts to collect the best facets of NLHE and limit into one MTT.

Enough whining about the two small sections that describe EXAMPLES and more focus on the idea of how structures could be set up to keep all the best characteristics and get rid of some of the things that many people feel are ruining the MTT's... please!

Regarding PF mechanics:

"The notion that PF all-in maniacs aren't exploitable is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY in the situations you cite!"

In any *single* occurance, I totally agree with you. But if you get someone into an AI PF where you're a 66% favorite three times in a row then guess what? Odds are that you will not survive one of those three.

It seems as if everyone keeps saying: "Oh, but they MUST be advantageous for a good player because they're correct according to PF mechanics!"

This is an example of people becoming so enamoured by percentages and numbers that they loose sight of the real goal... TO BEAT THE BUBBLE AND GET PAID.

The fact is that doing it once in a while is perfectly correct, but people are literally AI PF nearly every third hand for the first 30 minutes and that is nothing but some wierd form of bingo with cards.

No matter how much of a favorite you may be, going AI 12x before first break is no way to play in an MTT, regardless of PF mechanics... because the idea of a tourney is to survive long enough to make the bubble.

You want to put *your opponent* AI when you're ahead every chance you can get! However, you also need to do so while giving them as few chances as reasonably possible to knock you out!

Most of the times that I cash or make a final table in a 1400+ person MTT, I've been all in myself perhaps 3x from the first hand to my elimination. I've put others AI many times, certainly... but **not while risking my own survival**.

The other times, the ones where I don't do well, are the times where my being a 60% or better favorite didn't help because the flop went the other way. In those times I was either killed off right there or left too crippled to do anything.

The idea of this thread is to discuss a possible middle ground. One where wild luck against truly maniacal all-ins won't kill someone off the first or second time that they get the short end of the stick, as long as this occurs very early. Once mid MTT is reached, the people using AI are using them very well... and this is something that we all agree should stay the way it is.

But this first round "demolition derby" stuff is off the wall... and it's getting more common. That tells me that people aren't learning from thier mistakes but, rather, are just hoping to get lucky early on and then tighten up.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with your buy ins, be my guest. But my money will go where my decisions have more to do with my results than anything else. I'm basically posting and folding thre first hour in NLHE MTT's and then playing small ball to work my way up. It's a tactic that works about half the time but sometimes you just can't get momentum going because you're starting with about 80% of a normal starting stack.

For those who still disagree, think about this:

Phil H. always shows up nearly an hour late to any MTT, even the WSOP. You can't seriously think he's forgetting to set his watch or just being lazy, can you? He's using the RRR... Risk Reward Ratio. The risk of being involved during the first 60 minutes just isn't worth the reward... so he sleeps in or goes and gets someting to eat, then shows up late.

[Bob Loblaw]

"This is an example of people becoming so enamoured by percentages and numbers that they loose sight of the real goal... TO BEAT THE BUBBLE AND GET PAID."


The goal should be to make the most money possible. They aren't the same thing. Phil H can show up late beacuse the tournaments he plays are live ones with 90 minute levels and it really wont have that huge of an effect; he is wasting value though; theres no strategy behind it.

I think you need to read more about the math behind the game; Bill Chen's new book is basically a pokermath text book, i recommend it.

also; this 'demolition derby' effect you're talking about; outside of online freerolls i think you're going to have a hard time finding it; and as DVault said; if you can, it's going to be the most profitable thing you can find.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Dealers can barely keep track of pot-sized bets and raises, this would never catch on.

The way you talk about poker lends to the idea you dont really get it, when you say stuff like "avoiding the all in idiots early".

-Jason

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
Reged: 10/24/03
Posts: 30

[/ QUOTE ]

30 posts total over the course of 39 months ... of which no less than 8 (or more than 25%) are devoted to this mis-conceived idea.

Maybe you should try posting some hands or responding to other poster's ... it's an excellent way to improve your understanding of the game.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Enough whining about the two small sections that describe EXAMPLES and more focus on the idea of how structures could be set up to keep all the best characteristics and get rid of some of the things that many people feel are ruining the MTT's... please!

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Fair enough. No more talk about bad beats.

I'll reiterate, then, that the plays you think are 'ruining' MTTs are actually things most good players embrace, namely LAGtards giving their chips away by making huge all-in overbets with trash.

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding PF mechanics:

"The notion that PF all-in maniacs aren't exploitable is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY in the situations you cite!"

In any *single* occurance, I totally agree with you. But if you get someone into an AI PF where you're a 66% favorite three times in a row then guess what? Odds are that you will not survive one of those three.

It seems as if everyone keeps saying: "Oh, but they MUST be advantageous for a good player because they're correct according to PF mechanics!"

This is an example of people becoming so enamoured by percentages and numbers that they loose sight of the real goal... TO BEAT THE BUBBLE AND GET PAID.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute, fundamental misunderstanding of poker and MTTs. I don't know what else to tell you other than you're awfully confused.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is that doing it once in a while is perfectly correct, but people are literally AI PF nearly every third hand for the first 30 minutes and that is nothing but some wierd form of bingo with cards.

No matter how much of a favorite you may be, going AI 12x before first break is no way to play in an MTT, regardless of PF mechanics... because the idea of a tourney is to survive long enough to make the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I play MTTs to make money, so for me, the 'idea of a tourney' is to make money.

I suppose some may think the 'idea of a tourney' is to survive until the bubble. Seems like an awfully strange and rather asinine goal, but to each his own I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
But this first round "demolition derby" stuff is off the wall... and it's getting more common. That tells me that people aren't learning from thier mistakes but, rather, are just hoping to get lucky early on and then tighten up.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU DON'T WANT YOUR OPPONENTS LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES

repeat

YOU DON'T WANT YOUR OPPONENTS LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES

repeat

YOU DON'T WANT YOUR OPPONENTS LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES

That you don't understand this is bewildering. You seem to grasp that your opponents are indeed making mistakes by making huge all-in overbets PF with garbage, but for some reason that I can't quite comprehend, you fail to make the connection that your opponents mistakes = $$$ for you. That's why the plays you're describing are 'mistakes'. They're exploitable and you can make profit from them.

All of this suggests you have absolutely no understanding of the game and how to profit from it. Again, when and if your opponents start learning from their mistakes, poker will become less profitable for you. You do not want your opponents learning from their mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
For those who still disagree, think about this:

Phil H. always shows up nearly an hour late to any MTT, even the WSOP. You can't seriously think he's forgetting to set his watch or just being lazy, can you? He's using the RRR... Risk Reward Ratio. The risk of being involved during the first 60 minutes just isn't worth the reward... so he sleeps in or goes and gets someting to eat, then shows up late.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this, and it has only reinforced my opinion that you don't quite understand MTTs, poker, zero-sum games, game theory, etc.

[Vorlin]

I look at it this way:

- An MTT is like a race... finish in the top whatever to make money, which is the goal.

- At the start of each race, there seem to be people who don't care about trying to drive but rather seem to think that the purpose is to ram everyone they can to try to smash as many as they can as fast as possible. This is what I refer to as the early round PF insanity. I'm glad to hear that it's not nearly as common once you get away from freerolls and, due to that, I'll be getting away from them effective today.

- I take the math a little differently, with a broader view. If I enter 5 MTT's and am in 3 of them for only 90 minutes each due to the maniacs, and then finish just inside the bubble in one (another 3 1/2 hours) and then take like 14th in another (for 4 1/2 hours more), I'll have a total of about 12 1/2 hours invested. Since I can usually beat the bubble, even by a little, *under the condition that I don't get ramed early on*, then it is in my best interest to stay away from the early maniacs... because, for me, it's more profitable in the long run that way.

- My issue isn't the mechanics of any single hand and I think that the mid and later MTT play is great. The problem I have is that to make any early moves at all, you have to risk everything far too often. Let's face it, if you have a 6 shot revolver then you're a 5:1 favorite when you play Russian Roulette... but if you take that 5:1 bet 7 or 8 times then it doesn't matter if you win the first 3 or 5... you're dead the very first time it goes wrong. In an MTT, that equates to making no money.

And we all agree that the goal is to get paid.

The only thing I really don't understand is why anyone would be happy to be surrounded by people who go all in all the time. Once in a while is great, sure. I'll take that 5:1 at least twice, if not three times... but not 7 or 8 times.

It's just not profitable in the long run.

However, from what others say here, you don't run into this nearly as often once you get away from freerolls and, for that, I'm glad to have started this thread because it points me in a direction to go so that I can find some sanity.

Sure we want one or two maniacs at every table, we can make a killing off of them. It's only when you get surrounded by them that it becomes a problem.

[Pondy]

I love all in idiots. With them at my table I dont have to bother thinking about bluffing/stealing blinds etc. I just know that during the first break i'll be standing in my back garden having a quiet smoke thinking "cant even remember how i even got such a big stack!".

[0evg0]

OP,

lol ur dumb

[FlyingCarpet]

While it can sometimes be frustrating to have an early exit, I wouldn't want to limit the ability of unskilled players to throw their chips at me.

I actually prefer to start out with small ball but I play the situation and if I have a monster I'm only too happy to risk all my chips calling some Donk's massive overbet. It can really set up a solid run for the money if you are the CL early on.

Example from a the first hour of a $24+2 Satellite for the FTOPS #3 750k. The sequence was such that I actually thought I might be facing AA & AK since the pot was re-raised 3 times.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $20/$40
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $120</font>, 2 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $1000</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $1605</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 calls all-in $1425</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $2005</font>, SB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($4070, 1 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: $6220)


Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4070, 1 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: $6220)


River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4070, 1 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: $6220)


Results:
Final pot: $4070
<font color="#cc0000">MP2 showed Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font>
<font color="#cc0000">Button showed J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]</font>
<font color="#cc0000">SB showed Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]</font>
<font color="#cc0000">Hero showed K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]</font>

My pot is t6400 Now my M is over 100 Yea for me!! lol

[Fiksdal]

Vorlin

If you are going to maximize your expected win in an MTT, you NEED to accumulate chips. Sure, all you need to do is to stay around for as long as possible, but the blinds will increase and the only way for you to actually do this is to build your stack.

If you want to build your stack, the best strategy is to always look for certain situations and accept them once you see them. I am talking about situations with a positive expected value (+EV)

If you are in the big blind with 75 bb's and AKo, and the SB maniac who has you covered pushes all-in with QJs, you should be happy about it. It is true that a fair amount of the time he will catch a pair and you will be eliminated. However, most of the time you will double up and be in terrific shape. Thus, on average you gain and he loses.

You can not just sit around in a multi table tournament hoping to survive long enough to make the money. First of all, because you will become short stacked very often, and bust out anyway (same result as if you had taken a +EV situation early but somehow busted out in that way because of variance). More importantly though, barely making the money gives you only like 2-3 times your buy-in. However, if you have spent the tournament accumulating chips, you have a large stack. That stack can be used to battle your way through the rest of the field, and win many many multiples of your buy-in. This is the strategy that has the highest $ expected value.

There is no magic way to pass up +EV situations without also decreasing your expected cash. I could write examples and explanations on this forever. PM me or read the Anthology sticky at the top of the MTT forum if you still don't understand.

"You can't lose what you don't put in the middle. But you can't win much either.

- David Levien -