High Stakes Poker thread (10/21) (spoilers to come)

[lsaw2]

[ QUOTE ]
Jman and I both played half sessions. We didn't see that many hands. Had we seen more, we probably would have leveraged our tight image. In live games, no one who has played with me could possibly classify me as a nit. Bottom line... trying to run over Sammy and Eli out of position is not a good idea. You will end up folding a lot of winners with big money in the pot.

Another consideration... I had about 550k at the cage at that time and I was one of the alternates for the 500k min buy. I would have bought in for more and played faster if that wasn't a concern. I think Jman had a similar issue.

The whole thing was a lot of fun for me. I watched all the stuff when I wasn't playing... the 500k min buy session is going to be the best poker TV of all time.

Brandon

[/ QUOTE ]


Dunno how I missed this, it's such a shame it wasn't rigged like online to get some action hands and obv the rake up [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

And I would much rather watch the younger players playing in the 500k buyin than just the same old faces. It was interesting when Jman bet his Jacks and Hellmuth was saying "I just dont know anything about him....."

Could really spice things up a bit.

As i've said before I wish there was some way that they recorded all hands dealt and how they were played and this could be accessed online afterwards would make for interesting viewing.

[JDesab]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing? you did bring a second bullet right. i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are raising QQ here for any reason, it should not be to find out if he has a K. That's just dumb. You would be raising to protect ur hand against a fourth diamond (? heart?, whatever). But, you are essentially turning your hand into a bluff. So, you might as well have 72o. I don't think you understand this, so maybe ur not qualified to judge his play.

His other option, calling: With a player left to act and no cards that can come on the river that'll you like just really isn't a nice spot to put your self in. A lot of playing good poker, is just not putting your self in [censored] situations.

Sure, he could shove his stack in the middle. If he folds jman had the best hand, if he calls jman doesn't. Sounds like a -EV bet to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm... so what you're sayingto me is that he should take any opponenets bet to mean that his QQ is beat.. and fold. or .. simply call... if he does happen to be ahead and allow the flop bettor to see the turn and more than likely the river on his terms.

holding queens on that board... you have to consider the likelihood that you still have the best hand. or you can run away scared of the bet. if you brought a second buy in... there's your reason to play your big hand like it is a big hand.

btw... i'm not saying i would have raised... i would have folded quick .. then again .. i'm not a big stakes player.. and obviously neither is jman. except in the alternate poker universe called internet poker.

you all have seen why internet poker is still not the same as real poker.. you just choose to ignore it.

[JDesab]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I`m NOT folding, put the money in the pot! ... I`m gonna lay it down"

didnt know "folding" and "laying it down" were two different things... ty, Jamie!

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought verbal was binding. Was it just that Hellmuth didn't call him on it and everyone else was shutting up because they weren't in the hand? I thought if Phil wanted to he could make Jamie call or raise based on him saying "I'm not folding".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not sure what the ruling would be, since he didn't actually verbally declare a specific action. Since he had 3 options, "I'm not folding" doesn't count as declaring an action.

It's possible that Phil could have called him on it, but it would have been somewhat ungentlemanly, since Gold's intent was clearly to say "I actually have something to think about, it's not an instafold that I'm gonna milk for TV time."

[/ QUOTE ]

in this case "i'm not folding" can be interpreted as "i'm not folding right now" .. his turn continues and then he decides to fold.

life is much more difficult when things are not mouse clicks.

[JDesab]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

His fold of qq was easy,

[/ QUOTE ]

jman says in his post that he wishes there was a game where he and the other internet pros can use their reading and poker acumen to play. so if these internet guys are such good readers and thinkers... why run away from this hand. i would think that the correct play in that situation would be to raise sammy... but i'm not the internet god that you all worship so i'll stay at my live table.



[/ QUOTE ]

that would actually be by far the worst play, so its probably in your best interest to stay at your live table honestly

[/ QUOTE ]


explain. the k hits... you should know that sammy is capable of betting with air. you have a big hand.. is it not worth raising sammy to see where you're at. now ... i have also read JMAN'S hsp post.. and he says there "i brought 700k... 500 for day 3 and 200 for two buy ins on day 2".... would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing? you did bring a second bullet right. i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.

you know that you're not playing level 1 poker players sitting at that table.. you can imagine that they're going to test the new, young guy. a shove here would have won, we know that because we got to see the hole cards..but if he did shove and had lost... do you think sammy would be playing at him on future flops the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

what stakes do you play at online? i'm testing my theory that nobody who has ever been a long-term winner at 200NL or beyond could ever on their life write an "analysis" of a hand this mindnumbingly stupid and worthless. micro stakes, amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

i play 2/5 nl and 5/10 nl i play 7.5/15 limit. my BR is sitting at 87,350 and i haven't worked in 18 months. i only play live.. i only recently found this forum based on some reading. i'm amazed at how different online poker is from live. even further amazed at how online players actually think their style is better than live pros.

in the QQ hand...does anyone take into account that sammy bet in early position? if your opponenet bets.. when they expect you to make a continuation bet... isn't it fishy?

[JDesab]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

His fold of qq was easy,

[/ QUOTE ]

jman says in his post that he wishes there was a game where he and the other internet pros can use their reading and poker acumen to play. so if these internet guys are such good readers and thinkers... why run away from this hand. i would think that the correct play in that situation would be to raise sammy... but i'm not the internet god that you all worship so i'll stay at my live table.



[/ QUOTE ]

that would actually be by far the worst play, so its probably in your best interest to stay at your live table honestly

[/ QUOTE ]


explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let's do this. For completeness and for reference, I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread, since people seem to be getting facts about the hand mixed up.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the hand:
Negreanu btn, Hellmuth posts 300, Harman posts 600, Brandon posts 1200. Farha UTG calls 1200, Gold fold, jman raises to 6500, Elezra calls 6500, folds to Farha who calls.
Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 22400)
Farha check, jman check, Elezra check.
Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot 22400)
Farha bets 16000, jman folds, Elezra folds.

(Farha had [Jc5c], Elezra had [4s3s])

I wouldn't exactly call 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] a harmless flop for Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with two opponents, one of which has position on you. A bit more leniency could also be afforded to jman since he hadn't gotten a feel for the flow of the game yet, but regardless, I think this is being misrepresented as some sort of atrocious weak/tight play from Galfond.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Here we go.

[ QUOTE ]
the k hits... you should know that sammy is capable of betting with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously. I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
you have a big hand..

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. You'd be right in saying that jman had a big hand (preflop), but Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is NOT a big hand on a 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop. In fact, it's a pretty crappy hand against two opponents, one of whom has position on you. Sure, you might be winning, but if you bet and get called (or raised), you don't have a single good way to continue the hand. As an earlier poster said, a large part of good poker playing is staying out of bad situations, and this is an example of that. I don't understand why you think he has a big hand here.

[ QUOTE ]
is it not worth raising sammy to see where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but only as a bluff. But it's still inadvisable. I think if you want to do something like this, betting the flop would be a better choice.

[ QUOTE ]
would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it would be a bad spot, for the reasons mentioned above.

[ QUOTE ]
you did bring a second bullet right.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's no reason to make a bad move.

[ QUOTE ]
i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that, by the definition of weak, weak play could never be the right move. But this isn't weak play. This is tight play standard for a TAG style. Tight is not (necessarily) weak.


[ QUOTE ]
you know that you're not playing level 1 poker players sitting at that table.. you can imagine that they're going to test the new, young guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sure.

[ QUOTE ]
a shove here would have won, we know that because we got to see the hole cards..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but as I'm sure you know, we can't let our knowledge of hole cards affect our reasoning for the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
but if he did shove and had lost... do you think sammy would be playing at him on future flops the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. Do you think it's worth such an investment to maybe get Sammy to play differently against you for the next 2 hours? Or even for the next day? As said in ToP, the less you expect to play against a specific opponent, the more standard your plays should be (aka don't advertise for someone you'll never play again).

[/ QUOTE ]


very well written... and i obviously did not remember the hand correctly. reading it as transcribed here... this is what bothered me most as i watched the hand.

jman raised bringing it in.

on the diamond flop ... why didn't he bet something between 13,000 and 16,000. once he checks sammy bets the turn.... why can't jman consider this a steal attempt.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
i play 2/5 nl and 5/10 nl i play 7.5/15 limit. my BR is sitting at 87,350 and i haven't worked in 18 months. i only play live..

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm amazed at how different online poker is from live. even further amazed at how online players actually think their style is better than live pros.

[/ QUOTE ]

The general consensus is 5/10 live nl is roughly comparable to the skill level of 1/2 on the net.

I guess this could vary by location as the people I talk to about it were talking about live games in Vegas and Foxwoods.

[DevinLake]

I play 2/4 and 3/6 online and 10/20 live when it runs here in Calgary. I played 5/10 in vegas this summer. 2/4nl online is much much tougher than either 5/10 or 10/20 live.

Why do online players think their style is better than live pros? Because, although most live pros play decent post flop, they have absolutely huge spew preflop. So, when you mix that in with the fact they don't value bet thin like ever, play combo draws passive, never 3-bet less than the nutz, call 3-bets out of position with any cards that were good enough to raise, call raises out of position with any cards that were good enough to limp, call every time they hit a flop regardsless if it's bottom pair and there are 6 to the flop, raise to see where they're at, fold to tripple barrels on drawy boards but always calling the first two with mp, etc.

[BrandiFan]

Two quick comments:
1. Thanks to Brandon Adams for contributing to this thread.

2. OMG?! 2/5 nl!
Congratulations on winning at poker. BTW, any internet player who can find his shirt, pants, and fold button should be able to beat 2/5 nl.

[grdred944]

[ QUOTE ]
You Jman haters are idiots.

IIRC he said he only got to play for 2 hours. With all the hollywooding that goes on, I would be surprised if he got dealt more than 30 or 40 hands in that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for proving my point. Offer a simple opinion on jman that does not tow the 2+2 party line and be labeled a hater. Too funny.

Put aside your manlove for a minute and reread some of these posts before labeling anyone an idiot or a hater.

[JDesab]

it seems that my point got ruined.

the player seemed to be scared? that is my entire point.

he did not bet the flop ..

i will say that once he gave the free turn he let the hand go.. better than calling along.

as i read all you internet folks posting... about a live game noless where there are no poker tracker programs and you don't know a third to half the table and chat in AIM anyway.... your hero looked like a scared puppy. you all see it.. and you all have immediately gone into defend mode.

Jman is truly lucky to have such a strong fan base.

if only you all were so kind to the other players you watch on that show.

these are the only reasons i posted.

in the end... we can only argue on who is better and at what level. to find out you have to play.