The Pre Flop Raise

[PokerFoo]

I have a theory question about the Pre Flop Raise.

In the game of NLHE is there really any math or logic that dictates the 3 bet or pot size PF raise that the majority of players use?

Is it really wrong to min raise or is it just style?

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Now that I have asked my question I'll state what I have been doing and why I have this question.

IN online tournaments I have been experimenting with min raising only PF. I have been a little shocked by the results.

First thing I noticed is that min raising doesnt seem to encourage poeple to call as one would think. I am getting about the same action to the flop as I do when I 3 bet. The BB is folding surprisingly often. The action I do get is the kind I want. Loose calls a small leaks before they get away. Or I get re-popped by something who thinks my min raise is weakness (I havent changed my conservative hand requirements so it rarely is)

Next I notice that I am not being put all-in (and having to fold) post flop after I bet as much as I was before. I am going to showdown with the best hand more often without having to commit all my chips. Play on every street is a little more chess like. The pot size is waaay easier to controll.

When I run into one of the player types who is a bet-pot PF and every street evey hand they play I am getting away cheap or breaking them.

I am getting to see and play waaay more flops than I was when I was 3 betting.

Lastly I am cashing waaay more frequently.

In summery, is it wrong to min raise and small ball every hand? Should I go back to the 3 bet/betpot/all-in game everyone else is playing? People in the games have been calling me a min raising donk. Ha-Ha [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hard to care when it seems to be working so well for me.

[timmay28]

Bump. Was hoping to see one of the experts weigh in on this by now. Ferguson mini raises all the time pf. Lee Watkinson seems to do it about half the time. Must be some logic to it.

I'm also wondering if it is ever a good play to mini-raise to sweeten the pot after several have entered and you have a low pair. Say you're in a tourney where blinds are 50/100, blinds and 4 others limp, you're on the button with 33, by mini raising you have t1200 in the pot instead of t600 and with a bigger pot at stake people are more willing to call you with 2nd best hands after you flop a set.

[jay_shark]

The problem I find with mini-raising is that it's increasingly more difficult to put them on a hand postflop when you get called (especially when the BB calls) . I prefer raising 3x the bb which gives me that extra fold equity and allows me to define a players hand better .

In many cases , I may even raise to 4x the bb if I expect to be called often from behind . So in general , you should be willing to increase your size raise with your value hands at a loose calling table .

If the table is incorrectly calling with many hands when you make 2x raises but they're correctly folding with many hands when you make 3-x raises then you should choose the former . If the opposite is true , then you should choose the latter .

So the best answer I could give you is to play around with different raises and see what works best for that particular session .

[PokerFoo]

If I understand you right, Jay, your saying that it is indeed a matter of style and adjustment for player types and table dynamics. Not something that can be determined to be correct or incorrect by way of math.

One thing I really need to make a point of, again, is that my min raises are NOT getting action I would not be getting otherwise. I don't find the task of putting a cold caller on a hand any different than if they called 3 bets or just one. Even from the BB. Over the last weeks of doing this experiment I have seen that most players just play thier cards with little regard to anything else. If the player folds A-X for 3 bets he folds it for one.

In fact, The exact opposite of what Jay is worried about seems to be happening. Figuring out what an opponant has is much easier playing small ball. If I 3 bet in a tourney (at any stage Im avg stacked) and get called by one or two players the pot is large enough to force all-in or crippling decisions. Not to mention 3 betting tends to encourage a cold call and then someone pushing all in PF. Or worse than that you 3 bet and get a cold call and then the button and the BB also call. What your worried about will happen MORE often by 3 betting because it puts pots out there worth stealing. I mentioned before how shockingly often I am min raising and it folds all the way around. Far more often than when I 3 bet.

If the pot is small Players will chase for half the pot on the flop and fold to a half pot bet on the turn instead of pushing all in on the flop with a draw after I bet.

I dunno. I see the majority of players out there 3 bet then use the bet pot or all-in move for the rest of the hand. They do this every time. It seems to me they are jacking up the pot sizes to a point where the hand becomes unplayable after the flop unless you go all-in or risk your tourney life. How are you putting players on hands when the pot represents 50% or more of your chips on the flop and one of 3 players uses the online standard bet pot button (usually first to act)?

Can anyone offer any argument against any of this? All the books say the opposite of what I am experiencing. 3 betting seems to just create a lot of unwanted situations.

[Rek]

PokerFoo, I have to say there is a lot in what you are saying. I have been minimum raising from OOP with various hands. And with surprisingly good results. It may be that I have been running on the good side of variance on these but this is over a big sample.

Anyway, I put this down to players just being a little uncomfortable. It seems that many view the minimum raise as disguised strengh rather than just speculative play.

All serious players are educating themselves by reading books so the "correct" play is known by everybody. 3 bets are expected and no longer respected IMHO. Therefore, as you are implying, it just builds a big pot. I am tending to minimum bet or bet 4xBB.

The real art is to just keep mixing. Be aware that almost all regular players know the "correct" way, so just experiment and try to do things "incorrectly" at times.

[TomCowley]

I see a couple of plausible explanations. In the grand scheme of things, there's not *that* much difference between minraising, raising 3x (don't call it 3 betting, that means reraising somebody who raised you), and Jesusing raising 2x early and 3x late. It would take a lot of tournaments to confidently assert a difference.

1) Variance (in a good way) since you started minraising more.

2) You were raising too light, and now you get punished less on your light raises.

3) You're taking a different psychological approach to the tournament and actually playing better postflop with your smallball mindset.

4) Your opponents see a minraise and do stupid things.

1 and 3 seem the most likely to me.

[PokerFoo]

Sorry, Yes. When I refered to "3 betting" I meant opening for 3x the BB. I hope that didn't confuse anyone.

I think it is a combinations of all those things you mentioned. I would lean towards 3 and 4, though.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I really wanted to bounce this off some folks.

[futuredoc85]

a) implied odds

b) stealing the blinds

c) bigger pot pf=bigger pot on the flop=bigger pot on the turn=bigger pot on the river= more value w/ good hands

[Nichlemn]

There's probably a way of calculating the perfect PR raise size. Plugging in the stack sizes/tightness to steals/3betting range/positions of the opponents to act, combined with your opening range, and you could get a close to ideal PFR size for anything, whether it be a HU SNG, late in a MTT or in a deep stacked cash game. It could be clarified even more with further statistics, but I think such an exact value would be too difficult to calculate and the EV gained would be increasingly small.

[dant734]

The problem I find witht he min raise is you dont know what your playing against. If soemone min raises me and I have 2 7 on the bb im calling. I always hope the person has a big hand when they min raise because im in no danger of losing alot but the person min raising is. I think the min raise does have a place in ones arsenal though. If your in the late stages of a tourney the min raise is usaully useless also. Once the antes kick in you need to raise to 4x bb if you want the bb to fold. I find using the min raise on a lp raiser and leading off with a small bet on any flop works well. That and when I'm shortstacked and have a big pair and want to get all my money in and making the villion feel compelled to call me.