My take... [long]

[deacsoft]

I received the PM that Mat sent out as you all did. At first glance I didn't really have much of a response. As most of you know, I generally stay out of the gossips, rumblings, and other "behind the scenes" workings of the 2+2 environment. I would be one of those "...approximately 31 mods felt everything is perfectly fine. Most of these mods do not participate here, not because they are turned off by the tone, but because they care more about the strat forums they mod ..." that Mat stated in this thread. However, I did state in my response to him that I would take some time to think about things. Mostly what I would like to focus on is ways to make this forum a better place. Or, as I would like to call it, return this site back to it's glory days.

I'd like to begin by quoting Mason form this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
we built ourselves into success by only being willing to do top quality stuff. That extended into this website and the forums. The idea was to have vigorous debate without insults, and to also have a little fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I couldn't agree with more. It is 100% of what I think these forums should be all about. It is also 100% of what my opinion of 2+2 as a company is. These forums once represented that standard of "top quality". The top quality standard is what attracted me to this site almost 4 years ago. Over those years I've been witness to the steady decline of quality in the forums. There are a couple big factors that I believe are strongly aiding the decline.

1. The first is growth. I was member number 7797 nearly 4 years ago. As of right this second there are 101262 registered users. With the massive growth of the site there is bound to be a fair percentage of complete morons, trolls, and whatnot. If the full number of registered users posted regularly and 5% of them were trolls we'd have 5,063 morons posting here.

2. Many quality posters have left the forums. Without their leadership and valuable posting the forums have suffered in quality. I believe that a large reason for the departures from these forums by these posters is due to reason 1. Mods were assigned to the forums. I had hoped that the Mods would take up leadership and post the highest quality they're capable of. As we all know, some have not and more have abused their authority. Some of this abuse has led to even more quality posters leaving the forums.

So now that that has been said, I'd like to list and describe some things that could be done to improve the forums for everyone...

We need a standardized set of rules/regulations for all Mods and members to follow. This should include, but not necessarily be limited to...
1. A code of conduct. This would state that Mods are expected to uphold the standard of "top quality"and "integrity" and "to have vigorous debate without insults" (to quote Mason). Mods will be respectful of each other, the Admins, and the forum members. Mods will not leak Mod Discussion forum specific information to any other member of 2+2. etc, etc. Mods should follow this or be stripped of their Mod status.

2. List of rules and punishments. This would state some specific and general examples of violations and the appropriate punishments for offenders. Example: Spamming- All spam posts are deleted, the spammer is perma-banned, and notes are left. Certainly we can not include every possible violation, but we can have enough listed for common violations to get all Mods on the same page and set some kind of standard. Some of these violations could include those listed in the Terms & Conditions. The dos and don'ts of locations can also be covered here.

3. Non-listed offenses. All non-listed offenses or something deemed by the discovering Mod to be in a "grey area" should be brought up in the Mod Discussion forum. Discussion can take place and a decision can be made by an Admin as to how to proceed and if this should be set as a standard procedure for the rest of the Mods to follow in the future.

4. Specific Mod rules. A list of procedures for all Mods and the possible punishments for not following them. Mods should be expected to leave note when placing a ban on someone. These notes should include their name, the date, and the reason for the ban. Mods should be expected to PM members when some action (ban, deleted post, edited post, etc) is taken against them. This PM would serve as education to the member. Note would then be left advising the Mods name, the date, and the notification to the member. This would help to appropriately punish repeat offenders. The notes would serve as proof that they were previously warned and advised of the rule(s). Custom titles and the procedure for moving threads could also be covered here. If Mods have an issue with another Mods or a member they should handle it privately via PM. Some people need a good kick in the butt, but doing it publicly on the forums results in people getting defensive and e-fighting. Even still it should be done respectfully.

I could go on with the list, but I think everyone sees where I'm heading. Lastly, I'll throw out some other comments and suggestions to improve the overall quality of the forums.

1. Current problematic Mods should be strongly considered to have their Mods status removed. I personally do not have a problem any of the current Mods. I'll be the first to say that I don't know much about all the Mod drama. I typically don't even read the threads related to such topics. But I know many of you do. I hope those more informed than myself can take over this issue. I strongly feel that all Mods should be held to a standard of excellence. A standard of what Mason envisions 2+2 as, and a standard that should come to mind when someone thinks of 2+2. We, as Mods, have to be the leaders of these forums. We are out there publicly every day interacting with the members. We have to lead these forums back to the informative and fun place they once were. We need to do so by example.

2. I think there should be fewer non-poker related forums. Forums that are non-poker specific can attract non-poker forum contributors. They get the wrong people on the site and can take some good posters away from forums that need them. Of all the problems I see on this site a very big percentage of them come from non-poker specific forums. How many Mods are there for non-poker related forums versus now many there are for poker related forums? Now figure the number of non-poker forum Mods with the number of non-poker forums. Do the same for poker related forums. (Don't count Ryan, Mike, or Mat)

3. I think there should be more specific poker forums. With the amount of posters we have new, more specific forums are needed. Another big part of the decline of these forums is that people don't take the time to sift through everything. There's simply too much information in too little a space. this leads to forums being clustered with repeat posts/threads. I think a listing as follows would greatly aid the quality of posting and the access of relevant information.
Example:
Limit Hold'em
-High Stakes-Full Ring
-High Stakes-Short Handed
-High Stakes-Heads Up
-Medium Stakes-Full Ring
-Medium Stakes-Short Handed
-Medium Stakes-Heads Up
-Small Stakes-Full Ring
-Small Stakes-Short Handed
-Small Stakes-Heads Up
-Micro Stakes-Full Ring
-Micro Stakes-Short Handed
-Micro Stakes-Heads Up (may not be needed as not readily available on-line)
-Limit to No-Limit
At first glance this may look like over-kill. But it can do nothing but help. It helps the member to post in the correct forum. This saves Mods time of moving threads, keeps other members from posting things like "wrong forum", it keeps everything organized and clean, and looks very appealing to new members. It also makes looking for information relevant to your question incredibly easier. I think more people would take the time to look through posts and use the search function if they knew they weren't going to have to sift through tons of information not relevant to their question. It makes everything faster and easier for everyone. It makes the forums cleaner and just more user friendly. Right now there's only one Heads Up forum that includes every poker game at every level. Imagine trying to find useful information in that forum in relation to whatever specific question you might have. Sure some forums may have very little traffic, but what's the difference? What you don't have is people flooding high traffic forums with stuff that doesn't belong there.

That's it. I'm going to stop here. If anything else comes to mind and I feel it's necessary I'll post it in a reply in this thread. Thank you to all of you who actually took the time to read this. It says that you're someone who actually might want to make 2+2 a better place or return it to it's glory days. it can be done, but it's going to take time and a lot of effort on our parts. I'd love to hear any comment you guys have on any of what I've said.

Cheers,

deacsoft

[private joker]

Good post, deac. I'll just say that the large number of strat forums you propose will probably have the opposite result of what you predict. That is, it will actually mean more time spent moving threads, not less. With this many forums, there are that many more opportunities to post threads in the wrong place. 2 forums, 50/50 shot. 10 forums, 10% shot.

Also, you'll have a ton of dead air. For example, HU limit doesn't get enough posts to drive a forum as it is, so why have 4 places for it?

Otherwise, well said.

[Buzz]

deacsoft - A well thought out and written post! Just a few things....

[ QUOTE ]
I received the PM that Mat sent out as you all did.

[/ QUOTE ] No matter, but I never got it. Somehow I was not on that mailing list. But it’s fine because we have corresponded and I read the mods forum from time to time.

[ QUOTE ]
Most of these mods do not participate here, not because they are turned off by the tone, but because they care more about the strat forums they mod ..."

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly true for me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

we built ourselves into success by only being willing to do top quality stuff. That extended into this website and the forums. The idea was to have vigorous debate without insults, and to also have a little fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I couldn't agree with more. It is 100% of what I think these forums should be all about.

[/ QUOTE ]Me too!

[ QUOTE ]
2. Many quality posters have left the forums. Without their leadership and valuable posting the forums have suffered in quality. I believe that a large reason for the departures from these forums by these posters is due to reason 1. Mods were assigned to the forums. I had hoped that the Mods would take up leadership and post the highest quality they're capable of. As we all know, some have not and more have abused their authority. Some of this abuse has led to even more quality posters leaving the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]Possibly true.

[ QUOTE ]
We need a standardized set of rules/regulations for all Mods and members to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. Mods should simply try to follow Mason’s reason for the existence of the forums (quoted above). Administrators (Mat or Ryan) should deal privately and individually with wayward mods.

[ QUOTE ]
This should include, but not necessarily be limited to...
1. A code of conduct. This would state that Mods are expected to uphold the standard of "top quality"and "integrity" and "to have vigorous debate without insults" (to quote Mason). Mods will be respectful of each other, the Admins, and the forum members. Mods will not leak Mod Discussion forum specific information to any other member of 2+2. etc, etc. Mods should follow this or be stripped of their Mod status.

[/ QUOTE ]When someone comes into your house you don’t tell them to not piss on the couch. That goes without saying.
[ QUOTE ]
2. List of rules and punishments. This would state some specific and general examples of violations and the appropriate punishments for offenders.

[/ QUOTE ]No. If a guest pissed on your couch, or did something else that anyone with the maturity of a normal ten year old would know is inappropriate, then I imagine you’d respond to that.

If you set up limits, some of jerk posters, that one per cent, or whatever, would push the limits to see what they could get away with. Better just to expect them to behave properly and deal with those who don’t.

Almost every errant poster I have chided privately has responded with an apology. Only three or four have replied belligerently. When they do respond belligerently, they lack respect for anyone working voluntarily as a moderator. Keep in mind that they only get chided when they already have been rude to another poster or have posted inappropriately.

[ QUOTE ]
Example: Spamming- All spam posts are deleted, the spammer is perma-banned, and notes are left.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course. That goes without saying.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly we can not include every possible violation, but we can have enough listed for common violations to get all Mods on the same page and set some kind of standard. Some of these violations could include those listed in the Terms & Conditions. The dos and don'ts of locations can also be covered here.

[/ QUOTE ]I don’t think an extensive list of dos and don’ts is necessary. A few site-wide guidelines might be worthwhile.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Non-listed offenses. All non-listed offenses or something deemed by the discovering Mod to be in a "grey area" should be brought up in the Mod Discussion forum. Discussion can take place and a decision can be made by an Admin as to how to proceed and if this should be set as a standard procedure for the rest of the Mods to follow in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]Not unreasonable. Seems better if we mods simply use common sense and courtesy. And then let the admins privately coach anybody who needs coaching.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Specific Mod rules. A list of procedures for all Mods and the possible punishments for not following them.

[/ QUOTE ]The list of procedures is a good idea. The list of punishments is not.

[ QUOTE ]
Mods should be expected to leave note when placing a ban on someone. These notes should include their name, the date, and the reason for the ban.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course!

[ QUOTE ]
Mods should be expected to PM members when some action (ban, deleted post, edited post, etc) is taken against them.

[/ QUOTE ]In general, O.K.

Recently a new poster posted what I thought was an inappropriate post. I copied the post, then deleted it, and sent the copy to the poster basically telling him that I had deleted his post because it was rude and/or inappropriate. Something like that. (I still have a copy, but it doesn’t matter exactly what I wrote. And it was at a time when I had a half dozen things going on at the same time). Maybe I could have handled the incident more expertly, but it doesn’t matter. What I did was fine. If you knew the details, you’d think so too. But it doesn’t matter even if I didn’t handle the incident well.

At any rate, the poster responded by writing me a PM telling me that I had a tiny penis.

That might actually be funny in my weekly private poker game with my buddies, but it shows either a basic lack of respect for the moderator role I’m playing or a too familiar approach.

But that’s the end of it for me. I’m not going to send the guy a private message. There is nothing I want to reply. I doubt that he’ll come back, but if he does, I’ll ban him. It won’t be out of anger, or revenge. It will just be a necessary matter of fact thing to do. The guy will tear up the forum if he’s allowed to post. The focus of the strong posters on the forum will become how to react to his insults rather than how best to play Omaha-8.

Mods need the leeway to deal with posters as they see fit. And if they act inappropriately, then it should be up to an administrator to step in. Mat currently gives us a lot of leeway and that’s good and necessary.

[ QUOTE ]
This would help to appropriately punish repeat offenders.

[/ QUOTE ]I suspect that if a guest in your house does something inappropriate enough, he won’t be a repeat offender (because he won’t get the chance to be a repeat offender).

[ QUOTE ]
The notes would serve as proof that they were previously warned and advised of the rule(s).

[/ QUOTE ]Notes are a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]
If Mods have an issue with another Mods or a member they should handle it privately via PM.

[/ QUOTE ]Issues with other mods should absolutely be handled privately. That goes without saying. An issue with a member might be another matter if the member makes a public untrue and/or accusatory post. I don’t know. Depends, I think. But that’s not something that needs a code of behavior book.

[ QUOTE ]
Some people need a good kick in the butt, but doing it publicly on the forums results in people getting defensive and e-fighting. Even still it should be done respectfully.

[/ QUOTE ]Sure.

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I could go on with the list, but I think everyone sees where I'm heading.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. Your heart is in the right place, but a list of rules and punishments would be tedious.

[ QUOTE ]
We, as Mods, have to be the leaders of these forums. We are out there publicly every day interacting with the members. We have to lead these forums back to the informative and fun place they once were. We need to do so by example.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you to all of you who actually took the time to read this. It says that you're someone who actually might want to make 2+2 a better place or return it to it's glory days. it can be done, but it's going to take time and a lot of effort on our parts. I'd love to hear any comment you guys have on any of what I've said.

[/ QUOTE ]You make some good points.

Cheers,

Buzz

[Jurollo]

I also didnt get the PM.

[Pokeraddict]

[ QUOTE ]
I also didnt get the PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add me to that list but I pretty much keep to myself so I don't think this really pertained to me although I did PM Mat to let him know all was fine. Honestly I am clueless as to what is even going on.

[Bond18]

Nice post deac. Like you i have very little idea about the personalities and ins and out of 2p2, i'm more interested in my strat, HF, and community forum.

I have witnessed though, the decline of quality posters frequenting the site, and outside of your idea for an enormous sum of forums, i think you make excellent points.

[durron597]

buzzisright

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We need a standardized set of rules/regulations for all Mods and members to follow.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Mods should simply try to follow Mason’s reason for the existence of the forums (quoted above). Administrators (Mat or Ryan) should deal privately and individually with wayward mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much how things have been going and I see no improvement, only the continued decrease of quality and increase of bickering. I wish it could be as simple as what you stated but I'm afraid that in reality things are going to take much more than "follow Mason’s reason for the existence of the forums". As far as I know, Mason's always had the same viewpoint on this, and I think what he wants and expects has always been simple and clear. Yet here we are.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This should include, but not necessarily be limited to...
1. A code of conduct. This would state that Mods are expected to uphold the standard of "top quality"and "integrity" and "to have vigorous debate without insults" (to quote Mason). Mods will be respectful of each other, the Admins, and the forum members. Mods will not leak Mod Discussion forum specific information to any other member of 2+2. etc, etc. Mods should follow this or be stripped of their Mod status.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
When someone comes into your house you don’t tell them to not piss on the couch. That goes without saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I wish it were that simple. Why give anyone the chance to use ignorance as an excuse for something that should be clearly obvious? If these things went without saying why are people leaving the forums due to Mods being abusive? Why are Mods being abusive in the first place? In my perfect world we'd all just get along with each other, but clearly some of us (Mods and Members) just don't get it. I simply propose that we put it out there and get everyone flying the same flag. We get everyone on the same page. We make everyone aware and do it as specifically as possible. The less room for interpretation the less room for misunderstanding.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. List of rules and punishments. This would state some specific and general examples of violations and the appropriate punishments for offenders.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
No. If a guest pissed on your couch, or did something else that anyone with the maturity of a normal ten year old would know is inappropriate, then I imagine you’d respond to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, a response would be needed. But if everyone knows what that response should be... everyone's on the same page. There's no need to ask what to do. There's no one that complain that they're being treated any different than anyone else. I think the clear reason for this is so everyone is aware and is on the same page.

[ QUOTE ]
If you set up limits, some of jerk posters, that one percent, or whatever, would push the limits to see what they could get away with. Better just to expect them to behave properly and deal with those who don’t.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they want to push the limits they can. They'll be punished the same as anyone else for their infraction. Expecting everyone to behave appropriately is what we've been doing and, obviously, it's not working as well as it could be.

[ QUOTE ]
Mods need the leeway to deal with posters as they see fit. And if they act inappropriately, then it should be up to an administrator to step in. Mat currently gives us a lot of leeway and that’s good and necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you're saying here. I think there's a certain amount of leeway necessary. But only the Mod that finds a problem is going to know about it. It's kind of like speeding. Cop pulls you over and has a procedure to follow. Ultimately, the cop decides whether or not to fine you. The same holds true on the forums. I'm okay with minor infractions being overlooked by a Mod who's using good judgment. But that doesn't mean that no procedure is needed. And on major infractions we should all know what's what and how to handle it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This would help to appropriately punish repeat offenders.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I suspect that if a guest in your house does something inappropriate enough, he won’t be a repeat offender (because he won’t get the chance to be a repeat offender).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there are a number of little things that someone can do wrong on these forums, and doesn't deserve to be perma-banned for it. But if that same member continues to repeat the same infraction after being told once, twice, three times... an escalated punishment is reasonable. Guidelines stating what such escalated punishments should be would keep everyone treated the same and get the Mods on the same page.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Mods have an issue with another Mods or a member they should handle it privately via PM.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
Issues with other mods should absolutely be handled privately. That goes without saying. An issue with a member might be another matter if the member makes a public untrue and/or accusatory post. I don’t know. Depends, I think. But that’s not something that needs a code of behavior book.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, if it went without saying I don't believe there would be as much drama as there is. Things said publicly that are untrue certainly warrant a rebuttal, but things of that nature have no business in the forums in the first place. Any such posts should be deleted immediately. This is a place to share poker knowledge. It's a place to teach and to learn and have fun doing it. There's no need for anything but.

We agree on much and seem to see other things a little differently. I appreciate your thoughts and value your input. I wish none of what I suggest would be needed, but I think this site is at a crossroad. Apparently Mat is of a similar opinion. Things are not going well. Sure, they could be worse. It's not like we're standing at the gates of hell or anything. It's still a great site with great people and there's a ton of great information here. But things could certainly be better. They were better. Steps can be taken make it better. I don't want to have to take these steps. I wish everything could go without saying. I wish everyone could behave appropriately and treat everyone else with respect. Unfortunately that's just not the way it is. We've let many things go too far by trying to be cool about everything. The site's daily workings and reputation are being tarnished because of it.

I'm not going to push for any of this. I'm not going to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. I'm simply going to say my piece, take to heart all feedback, and reply to what I feel I should reply to. I have few issues with just leaving things alone if everyone wants to believe everything is fine the way it is. I'll continue to do what I think is right and continue to Mod my forum to the best of my abilities. But I truly believe this site can be better for everyone. What I've proposed may take some work now and may cause some issues with people not open to changing the way some things are done/handled. But in the long run I believe it will make things better. I also think that implementing any of these ideas could be done in a timely manner with the upgrade of the site. So I'm basically saying that if changes are going to be made now would probably be a good time to get things rolling.

[Mat Sklansky]

Hold on to your thoughts. I think any changes will be easier to implement with the upcoming toolset. I'm likely to forget all about this post when we switch over and we are dealing with all the chaos of change.

So remind me when the time comes by bumping this thread along with any specific ideas. I think that's the next step for you, actually. Give me some specifics. Certainly I'm all for improvement, but I need specific proposals.

[deacsoft]

I will hold on to my thoughts and to this thread. However, the "specifics", I had envisioned would come from everyone. I never foresaw trying to make things right by myself. My hope was that others who care about this site and share my wants to improve it would contribute. Even if only in this thread. I don't want to do things my way, nor do I think anyone should. I wanted to help get the ball rolling, so that others would contribute. Many of my thoughts and ideas may be correct or incomplete. I'm counting on everyone's feedback and thoughts to help better this for everyone.