poker coaching

[JaredL]

Poker coaching, both for the student and teacher, seems to be getting quite popular on 2+2. I'm not really sure why it's called coaching and not teaching or even tutoring, but I'll accept it and move on. I'm interested in the thoughts and experiences of others who have coached, been coached, or even thought about either. I should point out that I'm in the latter group. I have thought about getting a coach in the past and may in the not immediate but not too distant future.

Just reading the MHSH sticky, there is a huge range of prices ($50-500 per hour, TA also has a $6K clinic), limits covered (micro up to 300-600), and services available (hand and video review, you sweat them, they sweat you, they sell you their HH database, teaching sessions and so on). A lot of the same things are available on the forums directly, albeit not by the same people. You can post a hand in the appropriate forum and get people to review it. Depending on the limit of course, these people that would respond are probably about at your level. The collective mind is certainly better than just reviewing it yourself. After all if you were sure what the right play was you wouldn't have posted it. Similarly, there are hand history swaps and so forth.

I see three main benefits from getting a coach. The first is motivation. Many people have gotten sucked into the Other Topics vortex and don't read the strategy forums or work on their game nearly as much as they should. The sunk-cost fallacy is probably working behind the scenes, but the act of paying someone for it may serve as motivation to work on your game more. In the extreme, whatever is done with the coach is more than the nothing that some people are doing to help their game. The second advantage is probably the most obvious. Coaches are people that can beat whatever game you're playing and most likely are good enough to beat several levels above you, possibly including the highest games available. Getting advice from people that know what the [censored] they are talking about is much better than getting it from people that only know about as much as you. The third advantage is related, and doesn't appear to always be there. There are some services that coaches provide that you just can't get elsewhere. These are instructive things ranging from them teaching you concepts to videos to showing you some of their hands.

The costs are obvious and usually listed in terms of $/hr.

As I said any discussion could be interesting, but I'd be interested in people's thoughts on whether it is worth it for the following types of people (some I think are obvious one way or the other but I add for completeness):
1. Micro stakes players that have no serious motivations to move up. They play mainly for enjoyment, and the couple hundred they win a month is just a slight perk as they have other income.
2. Small stakes (say limit 2/4 or 3/6, NL with $50 or $100 stacks) players that use poker as a second/third income. They haven't played higher. Moving up would be fine but isn't a priority as they want to keep the poker income fairly steady so only would do it over rolled and when they feel like they could solidly beat mid stakes games.
3. Same as 2 but more inclined to move up (maybe secondary poker income not as important).
4. Small stakes pros. Have taken shots at mid limit games with varying success. Would like to move up bankroll and skill permitting.
5-7. Same as 2-4 but for midstakes (say 5/10 - 10/20 or 20/40, NL with stacks 1000 and under).
8. High stakes players, whether pros or not.

Also, I'd be especially interested from coaches on their experiences, their motivation for doing so, and how much they think coaching has actually improved their own game and how they think.

Jared

[eviljeff]

here's a pretty entertaining thread about a coaching relationship gone wrong: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=

note the heroic appearance made by Taylor Caby

[lippy]

I feel there needs to be a thread like this about staking. It would be verryyy fascinating to hear of good and bad staking stories. I don't have one, so I won't start the thread.

[ahnuld]

For the record, I laugh out loud when reading who is willing to coach some days.

[lapoker17]

wow that thread is great.

[Jman28]

I've been on both ends of a coaching arrangement a few times.

I've felt that the student got the better end of the deal in each case, whether I was it or not.

I think that most coaching arrangements are worthwhile as long as the one getting coached is serious about getting better at poker, and will be playing, and therefore reaping the benefits of coaching, for a long time.

One of the main things I learned as a student was confidence in my own ability to make decisions. I'm not sure how to explain it really, but learning that I knew how to think about hands, and realizing that there isn't a 'standard' way to play everything got rid of that feeling of being lost or confused. I almost never feel lost during a hand anymore. I think it came from seeing great players/coaches work through their reasoning for plays, and noticing that the answers usually weren't clear cut.

[ike]

The only people who shouldn't consider paying for coaching are people who don't have much interest in getting better or who have access to advice from top notch players for free.

[pete fabrizio]

I've considered getting a coach, but I have a few issues with it:

1) It would have to be someone whose game I really really respected. There are a lot of people who are objectively much better than me who still don't meet that criteria.

2) For me to get anything out of it, they'd have to be able to articulate why a particular play is best beyond the obvious. In my experience, very few players -- even exceptionally good ones -- are capable of doing this. Many great players aren't able to explain (and frequently don't even necessarily understand) why certain things they do are correct, as they have either stumbled upon winning strategies or developed them instinctively. I don't need someone to tell me about what hands usually play well from each position, or what boards are good to continuation bet. I would need someone who can meld poker theory with practice in a way that they can communicate clearly.

3) A lot of the moves and skills that separate a good or decent player from a great player are especially difficult to teach -- e.g. really tough reads or counterintuitive plays -- such that frequently a "teacher" would be unable or even afraid to explain them. I've tried coaching PLO a little and I have a very hard time with this -- some situation will come up where I'm like, "He has nothing here, you should raise," but I can't really say why. Or worse, out of fear of looking stupid, I just go with the risk-averse play and suggest folding, even if my heart is telling me otherwise.

As a result of my concerns, the group of people I would trust to coach me is a small handful who have not the time nor inclination nor monetary incentive to take on students.

[ArturiusX]

Its interesting, I like coaching because I think it helps my game, which is why I'm cheaper than most. I love watching others player, thinking about different styles, different hands, and discussing poker. The money seems like a bonus and a reason for me to work harder.

My only problem is I'm australian, and I usually have a big timezone difference. It seems to be ok though.

On the snowbank thing, I'd always refund any unused sessions, personally, unless I had a really good reason. Hell, I'll refund if you're not happy with the session at all. But my students seem to like it, so its ok [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GoldenIP]

I think JMan hit the nail on the head regarding his confidence level increasing regarding his decision making ability as a result of getting coaching.

I'm actually midway through a batch of 5hrs in lessons with Balugawhale and am getting a great deal from it. CR vids helped me out loads around 10 months ago and I was able to build my roll from $250 up to where it is now - $12k~.

However, as good as CR vids were, there's nothing like a hands-on opportunity to talk through hands, situations, theory etc with someone who has succeeded at the levels I'm playing (mostly 1/2NL but some 2/4NL).

Baluga and I conduct the lessons over Skype which makes for hand discussion much easier than AIM! We usually have 4 tables going for an hour and then we'll discuss general principles for 30 mins. However, he's very accommodating with respects to what you want to get out of the lessons. I have had a decent amount of success so far and am happy with my personal progress but I'd like to think I'm humble enough to continue my pursuit for additional "poker knowledge and experience".

As JMan said, a decent amount of the time, it's obtaining the confidence in my own decision making but Baluga has added a variety of new concepts/weaponry to my game. What have I learned from the hours spent with him?

(1) Extracting Value optimally is a big one.
(2) Advanced flop play based on texture, position, opp. etc.
(3) PF ranges + Post Flop Equities
amongst other things...

There's a few more things I want to cover with him and so I'm probably going to get an additional package of 5hrs in the near future.

My general motivation is that:
(1) I want to become as good as I can
(2) If I have to spend $x/hr to potentially earn more $x/hr in the future, I think it's money well spent. Even if he raises my ptbb/100 even 0.5-1.0 it's money well spent in the long run IMHO.

I would highly recommend it if you have the money and desire to improve.