Picking off river bluffs in razz

[BrassMonkey]

Sorry for the newbie forum spew, but I'm going over a bunch of hands, and am trying to fix some razz leaks that I think I have. One of those leaks may be poor attempts at picking off river bluffs. For the sake of discussion, let's assume that we know for a fact that we're winning going into the river - we do not have a strong made hand, and our opponent clearly has only four cards below our worst card, which is a jack or a ten - and the river does not improve us to 9 low or better.

When determining whether or not to call what you think might be a bluff bet by your opponent on the river with a ten or jack low, it seems that the three main factors under consideration are your opponent's aggression level, the size of the pot, and the position in which your opponent is betting (he's in-position or out-of-position).

If your opponent is hyper-aggressive and the pot is reasonably sized, it seems as though you're going to frequently have an insta-call on the river in this situation, regardless of your opponent's position. Whether or not he's made a better hand than you, he's going to bet as an act of desperation, hoping that you've whiffed on the river, too. The pot will providing good enough odds for you to make this call over the long haul because you know that your opponent is a wildman.

That's the easy scenario, though. What about the worst-case scenario, when your opponent doesn't suck, mixes up his play well (sometimes aggressive, sometimes passive), and it bright enough to bluff at the right frequency? Then it's just a crappy guessing game, where you're probably going to get screwed no matter what you do.

I'd love to hear how you guys handle this type of situation on the river, and am especially interested in the role that you think position plays (if any) when determining whether or not your opponent is on a stone cold bluff. This has been causing me quite a bit of trouble lately (I've been picking off "bluffs" that were value bets). Perhaps I'm mistaken in believing that many players will bluff with great frequency on the river, when there's a pretty decent chance that I will call, given that I was "almost there" on sixth street, too.

Any help in this area would be great!

Here's an example of the type of hand to which I'm referring. In this hand it involved a call with queen high, which is pretty extreme, but I knew that villian had, at best, a worse queen high going into the river.

*Razz* ($3/$6), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1

*3rd Street* - (0.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Tc___calls
Seat 2: xx xx Js___*brings-in*___folds
Hero: 6d 8h 3d___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4h___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5c___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9d___folds

*4th Street* - (2.83 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Tc Qd___calls
Hero: 6d 8h 3d Qc___*bets*

*5th Street* - (2.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Tc Qd 9h___calls
Hero: 6d 8h 3d Qc 5d___*bets*

*6th Street* - (4.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Tc Qd 9h Qh___calls
Hero: 6d 8h 3d Qc 5d Ks___*bets*

*River* - (6.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx Tc Qd 9h Qh xx___bets
Hero: 6d 8h 3d Qc 5d Ks Qs___*checks*___calls

*Total pot:* (8.42 BB)

Thanks,

Brass

[RustyBrooks]

Instead of thinking of this as a razz problem, let's consider it is a general poker problem... there is an excellent chapter on this kind of thing in Theory of Poker, about heads up on the end, when you bet for value, when you check-call, (i.e. what kind of opponents to behave a certain way against). I think this is actually very applicable to razz because razz has a very clear delineation of hand strength that corresponds to how Sklansky does the excercises (he puts things in terms like... number the hands from 100 to 0 with 100 being the best and 0 being the worst. Now, you have hand #60 and you know your opponent with bet #70 and better for value and bluff with #40 or worse, what do you do?).

But in general, I have a few questions:
* How often do you check-raise on the end? Would you consider a check-raise in a situation like this, followed by a fold if he 3bets? (obviously, not if you think he'd call with a better hand). I think it's a mistake to never check-raise the river, because it gives your opponent some crucial information. If you never check-raise, and you check here, that means you can't beat his best possible hand, a T9, which means you have J or Q high. [Edit: I'd probably bet-fold in your opponent's case, or sometimes bet-call depending on what I thought of you]

* How often do you check-fold on the end after betting 4th, 5th and 6th? Not often I imagine. He has to figure you're going to call here, I think. The more likely it is for you the call, the less likely a (sane) person would bluff.

* In pure razz terms, even though your Q is better on 6th, any card he catches 8 or below that doesn't pair him gives him a winner. And since he only has 2 cards 8 or below at most already, there are 18-ish cards he could have caught to beat you.

[BrassMonkey]

Thanks Rusty, this was helpful, and indicates to me that I'm definitely trying to pick off too many river bluffs.

[Andy B]

This looks like a Stars hand. Do you have something against the converter?

I like how you played this hand. On the river, you only have a bluff-catcher, if that, so I would definitely check and call.

[BrassMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a Stars hand. Do you have something against the converter?

I like how you played this hand. On the river, you only have a bluff-catcher, if that, so I would definitely check and call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think that trying to catch a bluff here is okay?

Hmm, I probably don't know the converter to which you're referring - I just got the one posted in the Stud forum posting guidelines.

[Andy B]

Uh, usually the converter in the FAQ spits out something that includes these:

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You can't very well bet the river for value, and there has to be a better than 10% chance that the other guy is bluffing, so yeah, I think that chicken-calling is the way to go here.

[Johnny#5]

Whatever strategy you choose, you can't do any worse than this guy did:

Razz ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.38 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.38 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.19 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.19 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.19 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (7.19 BB)

BOATS FULL WHOOP WHOOP [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]