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  #1  
Old 11-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Captain R Captain R is offline
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Default Does any street make sense?

Bay101 20/40

I have K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in BB.

Loose raiser opens UTG. This means AT/A9+, KJ/KT+, probably 66+ ish range. Probably wouldn't open Q high here.

Folded to button loose-passive-fish who cold calls, I call in BB.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Checked to UTG who bets, fish calls, I check-raise because I'm ahead of most of UTG's hands and I don't think button has an A. UTG 3-bets, fish calls, I call.

Turn is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, UTG bets, button raises. I look at UTG who looks genuinely concerned. I just call, because if I raise I get 2 more BB out of button, if I just call I have a chance to milk an extra BB out of UTG and then 2 more from fish on river for a total of 3 BB. And in the rare event UTG actually has AK and button has 88 or something, I can potentially save monies.

UTG folds.

River is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet...

Does any street make sense here?
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  #2  
Old 11-01-2007, 02:21 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

lol, nope, except preflop is okay.
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2007, 02:24 PM
brick brick is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

hey BBB, if you're going to post in our forum can you go for quality instead of quantity?
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Old 11-01-2007, 02:35 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

brick - ?


i think his pf play is fine.

i think the flop play is bad because we're rarely ahead, and a raise will fold out utg's worse hands (like if he's cbetting pocket pairs queens and lower or something, which doesn't seem super likely). that same raise will get us owned by both players' better hands, but then we call anyway(?), i guess because the pot is large and some percentage of the time when we hit another K or maybe a Q we'll be good.

on the turn we hit one of our outs, but really only pull ahead of aq/aj. we're still crushed by aa/kk/ak/88 and at some point i would assume these other guys won't keep betting and raising without something approaching that level of strength, right? i would either lead out the turn or check/3bet it (which might be bad if it gets capped and the river blanks off - i'm not sure). i guess i don't find coldcalling to be awful but if the river blanks off, how much action can we safely put in? it leaves us not knowing where we are in the hand.

on the river, we beat absolutely nothing (except 88), yet for some reason decide to lead out anyway? so i disagree with that play as well. only aces full or better will raise us, and we don't give worse hands (again, this isn't very likely) the chance to make a desperation bet/bluff or something.
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  #5  
Old 11-01-2007, 02:37 PM
brick brick is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

thanks for putting some time and description into you post. we appreciate it.
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  #6  
Old 11-01-2007, 06:43 PM
Captain R Captain R is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

Here's what was going through my head, you may disagree --

[ QUOTE ]

i think the flop play is bad because we're rarely ahead, and a raise will fold out utg's worse hands (like if he's cbetting pocket pairs queens and lower or something, which doesn't seem super likely).

[/ QUOTE ]

The c/r was kind of laggy, but with the wide range of UTG's possible hands, I felt I was ahead of most of them. But I'm not sure what the superior action is. Bet flop? Most likley outcome is 1 or 2 calls or a raise, and then I don't know what this means. C/c flop and then c/f turn?

I disagree that UTG couldn't have QQ/JJ/etc., because around here 90% of players c-bet the flop. I mean, he raised preflop, and the flop comes AKx, that's the perfect flop for him to bet everything!

[ QUOTE ]

i would either lead out the turn or check/3bet it (which might be bad if it gets capped and the river blanks off - i'm not sure). i guess i don't find coldcalling to be awful but if the river blanks off, how much action can we safely put in? it leaves us not knowing where we are in the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really didn't want to see the turn get capped, and by just cold-calling I can judge UTG's action. I also mentioned the potential extra BB this way too. My plan was to c/r/fold almost every river. But then the Ace popped...

[ QUOTE ]

on the river, we beat absolutely nothing (except 88), yet for some reason decide to lead out anyway? so i disagree with that play as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river, we are only beat by an Ace, and this looks pretty unlikely for button based on turn play. Turn play the most likely hands for button are Kx, 88 and AK. River I plan to check-call, so I felt betting was superior because we might get a crying call from 88 and might (big stretch) get a K to fold. So we're basically free-rolling.

I'm basically representing some kind of Ace in this hand, maybe even A8.

I agree that every postflop action seems kind of backwards, that's why I posted this hand with my thoughts.
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  #7  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:55 PM
I.Rowboat I.Rowboat is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

If button is a "lose passive fish", does he really raise the turn without a K or an A? It's a protected pot; if he's bluffing, he has to get through you and the original raiser.

In this context, what does our river lead accomplish? Seems like we're splitting this most of the time and losing the remainder, though I suppose occasionally he'll have 88 here and will pay us off. Loose passive fish are not known for intelligent, bet-saving river folds for a single bet, so I don't see him folding a king, and since it sounds like you're giving him little possibility of holding an A, I suppose we're calling a raise? I guess I don't have enough confidence in our read of him to bet/fold, but that's what you are implying by leading.

Cap'n, I enjoy reading your posts and think you have a great feel for the game (and reading your stuff always makes me curious to know if we've played together), so maybe your description of the button is missing some context or other important details?
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  #8  
Old 11-01-2007, 10:11 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

CC river. Turn is fine. The flop I don't like CR. I don't think your equity is positive. If you have a read, fine, but just based on the hand ranges, it's not good.

I gave the button some eights, kings, and aces he could reasonably have, as well as some gutshots, and a couple slowplaying hands, like A8, and 88.

I gave UTG the same PF range u gave him. Your flop equity sucks.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,052,037 games 93.485 secs 32,647 games/sec

Board: As Kh 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 24.691% 22.38% 02.31% 683113 70579.50 { KsQc }
Hand 1: 39.484% 36.94% 02.55% 1127569 77680.50 { 66+, A9s+, KTs+, A9o+, KTo+ }
Hand 2: 35.825% 33.64% 02.19% 1026788 66792.00 { 88, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, QTs+, Q8s, JTs, J8s, T8s, A8o-A7o, KJo-K9o }


---
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2007, 10:32 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

[ QUOTE ]
Bay101 20/40

I have K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in BB.

Loose raiser opens UTG. This means AT/A9+, KJ/KT+, probably 66+ ish range. Probably wouldn't open Q high here.

Folded to button loose-passive-fish who cold calls, I call in BB.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Checked to UTG who bets, fish calls, I check-raise because I'm ahead of most of UTG's hands and I don't think button has an A. UTG 3-bets, fish calls, I call.

Turn is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, UTG bets, button raises. I look at UTG who looks genuinely concerned. I just call, because if I raise I get 2 more BB out of button, if I just call I have a chance to milk an extra BB out of UTG and then 2 more from fish on river for a total of 3 BB. And in the rare event UTG actually has AK and button has 88 or something, I can potentially save monies.

UTG folds.

River is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet...

Does any street make sense here?

[/ QUOTE ]

even if the 3rd player weren't in and we knew UTG was firing 100% of his PF range, we would still be an equity dog


111,870 games 0.005 secs 22,374,000 games/sec

Board: As Kh 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.587% 43.69% 03.90% 48873 4363.00 { KsQc }
Hand 1: 52.413% 48.51% 03.90% 54271 4363.00 { 66+, A9s+, KTs+, A9o+, KTo+ }

Add that to the fact that we are giving him every opportunity to play perfect against us by CRing, and your CR becomes even worse. So yeah, flop CR = nonono
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  #10  
Old 11-01-2007, 10:42 PM
JJH3984 JJH3984 is offline
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Default Re: Does any street make sense?

yeah even if you were a slight favorite against his range, you shouldn't c/r the flop. Just because "you're ahead" doesn't mean that you should fire away. What's going to happen when you c/r? He's gonna fold two outers and continue with hands that you beat.
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